1 Timothy 2:15

[firehill]

It is not difficult to understand the words spoken to Eve, in 3:16. Things are as he said they would be. If it is simple to understand the words spoken to the serpent and to Adam then the words would be just as simple to Eve. After all, she is easily deceived. There is no need to read things into them that are not there.

It is important to silence the lie that Eve was easily deceived.

1. God made her perfect. She was not defective in intellect.

2. The serpent was the craftiest and cleverest of all creatures. This implies that the task of deception was going to be difficult.

3. Nowhere in Scripture is the word "easily" attached to the word deceived when speaking of Eve. Neither is ease of deception implied.

I have often wondered how the serpent went about deceiving her besides the tricky questions. One important aspect is that he diverted her attention to intensive egagement with him alone ignoring Adam. This is a mezmerizing trick that works even today. I think it works because it involves more than words but spiritual aspects. Evil hasn't changed much since the original serpent. We must be careful around people with charisma that speak lies.

That is excellent, Oops!

It would be quite the claim for any to say that woman is defective by nature, prone to be deceived, that the serpent wasn't crafy, but just rather any ol' serpent, and that the scriptures, even out of God's own mouth, says that she was easily deceived.

[OopsMartin]

It would be quite the claim for any to say that woman is defective by nature, prone to be deceived, that the serpent wasn't crafy, but just rather any ol' serpent, and that the scriptures, even out of God's own mouth, says that she was easily deceived.

Interesting you should say that. I know a group that claims all five, and a few others that claim 4 out of 5.

And did you know that 2000 years ago, thanks in large part to the pharisees, these very beliefs were common.

I thank God for Paul who was really trying to teach us all true holiness of character, while trying to dispel the lies and misconceptions.

[firehill]

The challenge on p.18 sure did seem to cause the blessed sound of crickets.

Peace~

[inhistime]

The challenge on p.18 sure did seem to cause the blessed sound of crickets.

Peace~

Hey, 'firehill' I sure liked the way you said this. I think I am going to have to remember it for all the times that I have given a challenge that has not been answered. Ah, yes, the blessed sound of crickets. You have a mighty fine way with words!

[methinkshe]

It seems to me that there are two ways to approach Scripture. The first is to receive and learn REGARDLESS of preconceptions, and therefore to mould one's beliefs on what Scripture teaches, and the second is to come to Scripture with preconceptions and to try to prove them from Scripture. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss Scripture in its original languages and to debate the "jots and tittles", but I do have an awesome wonder for the truth of God's Word and for the WHOLE COUNSEL of God. In this thread I have experienced more of the second approach to Scripture (as I have outlined above) than the first. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't just my personal opinion getting in the way of truth. However, I have yet to be convinced that anything more is being done in this thread than wriggling - serpentlike. I have no sense of revelation or of an unfolding truth - only of fallen humanity trying to justify itself and current fashions one way or another. In any event, I withdraw and continue to wait on the Holy Spirit whose mission is to guide into all truth.

Ruth

[Guest Biblicist]

It seems to me that there are two ways to approach Scripture. The first is to receive and learn REGARDLESS of preconceptions, and therefore to mould one's beliefs on what Scripture teaches, and the second is to come to Scripture with preconceptions and to try to prove them from Scripture. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss Scripture in its original languages and to debate the "jots and tittles", but I do have an awesome wonder for the truth of God's Word and for the WHOLE COUNSEL of God. In this thread I have experienced more of the second approach to Scripture (as I have outlined above) than the first. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't just my personal opinion getting in the way of truth. However, I have yet to be convinced that anything more is being done in this thread than wriggling - serpentlike. I have no sense of revelation or of an unfolding truth - only of fallen humanity trying to justify itself and current fashions one way or another. In any event, I withdraw and continue to wait on the Holy Spirit whose mission is to guide into all truth.

Ruth

Sola Scriptura ~ By Scripture Alone ~ Scripture interprets scripture.

[inhistime]

It seems to me that there are two ways to approach Scripture. The first is to receive and learn REGARDLESS of preconceptions, and therefore to mould one's beliefs on what Scripture teaches, and the second is to come to Scripture with preconceptions and to try to prove them from Scripture. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss Scripture in its original languages and to debate the "jots and tittles", but I do have an awesome wonder for the truth of God's Word and for the WHOLE COUNSEL of God. In this thread I have experienced more of the second approach to Scripture (as I have outlined above) than the first. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't just my personal opinion getting in the way of truth. However, I have yet to be convinced that anything more is being done in this thread than wriggling - serpentlike. I have no sense of revelation or of an unfolding truth - only of fallen humanity trying to justify itself and current fashions one way or another. In any event, I withdraw and continue to wait on the Holy Spirit whose mission is to guide into all truth.

Ruth

One thing that I try hard to do is to never judge the motives of another person's heart because we are told not to do that. We are told to study to show ourselves approved:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Yes we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us, but it also requires a great deal of work on our part. We must also work hard especially on the tough passages of scripture. We cannot ignore the meaning of the original words. It isn't hard. There are many study helps available, many of them free on-line resources. When we work hard at understanding what the bible says we won't as easily fall prey to tradition that teaches us things that are not in scripture. We cannot just hold to tradition without checking that tradition against scripture. Tradition says that Eve added to God's word and lied about what God said. When we are diligent and test everything by the word of God in its original context with its inspired words and inspired grammar, we are able to lay aside the faulty traditions and hold fast to the truth.

I encourage all to study earnestly. The blue letter bible is a great resource to start with. You don't even need to download anything. E-sword is also mostly free. There are tools available to allow any one to study to show yourself approved. The Holy Spirit will lead all those who are diligent, who work hard to know the truth. That is His way - that we put in the effort to know for ourselves. Amen, dear Lord, your word is truth. It is worth the study to intimately know God's word by putting in the hard work.

[methinkshe]

It seems to me that there are two ways to approach Scripture. The first is to receive and learn REGARDLESS of preconceptions, and therefore to mould one's beliefs on what Scripture teaches, and the second is to come to Scripture with preconceptions and to try to prove them from Scripture. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss Scripture in its original languages and to debate the "jots and tittles", but I do have an awesome wonder for the truth of God's Word and for the WHOLE COUNSEL of God. In this thread I have experienced more of the second approach to Scripture (as I have outlined above) than the first. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't just my personal opinion getting in the way of truth. However, I have yet to be convinced that anything more is being done in this thread than wriggling - serpentlike. I have no sense of revelation or of an unfolding truth - only of fallen humanity trying to justify itself and current fashions one way or another. In any event, I withdraw and continue to wait on the Holy Spirit whose mission is to guide into all truth.

Ruth

One thing that I try hard to do is to never judge the motives of another person's heart because we are told not to do that. We are told to study to show ourselves approved:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Yes we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us, but it also requires a great deal of work on our part. We must also work hard especially on the tough passages of scripture. We cannot ignore the meaning of the original words. It isn't hard. There are many study helps available, many of them free on-line resources. When we work hard at understanding what the bible says we won't as easily fall prey to tradition that teaches us things that are not in scripture. We cannot just hold to tradition without checking that tradition against scripture. Tradition says that Eve added to God's word and lied about what God said. When we are diligent and test everything by the word of God in its original context with its inspired words and inspired grammar, we are able to lay aside the faulty traditions and hold fast to the truth.

I encourage all to study earnestly. The blue letter bible is a great resource to start with. You don't even need to download anything. E-sword is also mostly free. There are tools available to allow any one to study to show yourself approved. The Holy Spirit will lead all those who are diligent, who work hard to know the truth. That is His way - that we put in the effort to know for ourselves. Amen, dear Lord, your word is truth. It is worth the study to intimately know God's word by putting in the hard work.

Dear Inhistime,

I have no doubt that you are earnestly attempting to seek God's truth. However, I have sincere doubt about the hurdles one has to overcome to accept your interpretative position. You require that we discern minute grammatical differences that totally change the APPARENT word of God. Now, as the mother of a mentally retarded child, am I meant to tell her that it is better that women keep silence in church (NOTE: IN CHURCH) and allow men to TEACH as is the plain understanding of the instruction to Timothy, and which in her simple understanding she is capable of receiving (apart from anything else, she just adores men and seeks their approval - I wonder why - could be sexual even though she has the mentality of a 6 yr old, but could be God's order of authority, it is something I am still exploring), or should I explain to her that that is not what was really meant, what she must do is understand that there were certain grammatical conditions that altered the plain meaning of the passage such that it should be understood totally differently and she will need a person who is versed in Greek and Hebrew to understand? Whatever happened to: "unless ye come as a little child?"

Ruth

Btw, as previously posted, I am not inclined to continue the debate in terms of Scripture. I post this only in terms of how I receive God's word. It is for better apologists than I to debate Scripture. All I can do is offer my experience which has nothing more to qualify it than personal understanding.

[Guest Biblicist]

Dear Inhistime,

I have no doubt that you are earnestly attempting to seek God's truth. However, I have sincere doubt about the hurdles one has to overcome to accept your interpretative position. You require that we discern minute grammatical differences that totally change the APPARENT word of God. Now, as the mother of a mentally retarded child, am I meant to tell her that it is better that women keep silence in church (NOTE: IN CHURCH) and allow men to TEACH as is the plain understanding of the instruction to Timothy, and which in her simple understanding she is capable of receiving (apart from anything else, she just adores men and seeks their approval - I wonder why - could be sexual even though she has the mentality of a 6 yr old, but could be God's order of authority, it is something I am still exploring), or should I explain to her that that is not what was really meant, what she must do is understand that there were certain grammatical conditions that altered the plain meaning of the passage such that it should be understood totally differently and she will need a person who is versed in Greek and Hebrew to understand? Whatever happened to: "unless ye come as a little child?"

Ruth

Btw, as previously posted, I am not inclined to continue the debate in terms of Scripture. I post this only in terms of how I receive God's word. It is for better apologists than I to debate Scripture. All I can do is offer my experience which has nothing more to qualify it than personal understanding.

[inhistime]

It seems to me that there are two ways to approach Scripture. The first is to receive and learn REGARDLESS of preconceptions, and therefore to mould one's beliefs on what Scripture teaches, and the second is to come to Scripture with preconceptions and to try to prove them from Scripture. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss Scripture in its original languages and to debate the "jots and tittles", but I do have an awesome wonder for the truth of God's Word and for the WHOLE COUNSEL of God. In this thread I have experienced more of the second approach to Scripture (as I have outlined above) than the first. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't just my personal opinion getting in the way of truth. However, I have yet to be convinced that anything more is being done in this thread than wriggling - serpentlike. I have no sense of revelation or of an unfolding truth - only of fallen humanity trying to justify itself and current fashions one way or another. In any event, I withdraw and continue to wait on the Holy Spirit whose mission is to guide into all truth.

Ruth

One thing that I try hard to do is to never judge the motives of another person's heart because we are told not to do that. We are told to study to show ourselves approved:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Yes we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us, but it also requires a great deal of work on our part. We must also work hard especially on the tough passages of scripture. We cannot ignore the meaning of the original words. It isn't hard. There are many study helps available, many of them free on-line resources. When we work hard at understanding what the bible says we won't as easily fall prey to tradition that teaches us things that are not in scripture. We cannot just hold to tradition without checking that tradition against scripture. Tradition says that Eve added to God's word and lied about what God said. When we are diligent and test everything by the word of God in its original context with its inspired words and inspired grammar, we are able to lay aside the faulty traditions and hold fast to the truth.

I encourage all to study earnestly. The blue letter bible is a great resource to start with. You don't even need to download anything. E-sword is also mostly free. There are tools available to allow any one to study to show yourself approved. The Holy Spirit will lead all those who are diligent, who work hard to know the truth. That is His way - that we put in the effort to know for ourselves. Amen, dear Lord, your word is truth. It is worth the study to intimately know God's word by putting in the hard work.

Dear Inhistime,

I have no doubt that you are earnestly attempting to seek God's truth. However, I have sincere doubt about the hurdles one has to overcome to accept your interpretative position. You require that we discern minute grammatical differences that totally change the APPARENT word of God. Now, as the mother of a mentally retarded child, am I meant to tell her that it is better that women keep silence in church (NOTE: IN CHURCH) and allow men to TEACH as is the plain understanding of the instruction to Timothy, and which in her simple understanding she is capable of receiving (apart from anything else, she just adores men and seeks their approval - I wonder why - could be sexual even though she has the mentality of a 6 yr old, but could be God's order of authority, it is something I am still exploring), or should I explain to her that that is not what was really meant, what she must do is understand that there were certain grammatical conditions that altered the plain meaning of the passage such that it should be understood totally differently and she will need a person who is versed in Greek and Hebrew to understand? Whatever happened to: "unless ye come as a little child?"

Ruth

Btw, as previously posted, I am not inclined to continue the debate in terms of Scripture. I post this only in terms of how I receive God's word. It is for better apologists than I to debate Scripture. All I can do is offer my experience which has nothing more to qualify it than personal understanding.

Dear sister Ruth,

The essentials that we need for salvation are simple and even a child can understand them. However there are other doctrines that are definitely not simple to understand. Peter explains:

2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

2Pe 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

There are some things that are not essential to salvation that are very hard to understand. Do you see that this is what Peter is saying? Do you see that these "hard to understand" things are found in Paul's writings? If we take these "hard to understand" things and just take them at what seem to be face value, they contradict other clear passages. So how do we view these "hard things"? We have to work diligently at understanding these passages so that we do not fall prey to the error of those who twist these passages out of their context.

For example in the passage in 1 Timothy 2 you are saying that it is better that WOMEN keep silence in the church and allow men to teach and that this is the plain understanding. However, let me point out to you that in that passage the word "women" and "men" plural, is not there. You are reading into the passage what tradition has taught you. We cannot take this passage out of its context of the stopping of false deceived teachers and then with a broad paint brush apply it to all godly Christian women. If we do that we are denying the character of God and the principle of the "two or three witnesses" so that every fact is to be established. There simply is no other passage that denies women from teaching the bible to men. There is no second witness so that is a huge red flag that says that we need to have another look at what Paul is really saying. There are some basic questions that just beg to be asked:

1. If God wanted this as a general principle for all women for all time, then why did he never repeat the prohibition just as he repeated every other prohibition that he has given to mankind?

2. Why did Paul say "I am not allowing" instead of "God does not allow"? Where are any of God's other commands ever framed in the words of a man instead of as coming from God himself?

3. Why would God have put this prohibition in amongst the stopping of deceived teachers? Did God not know the future and know that many godly people could see this as a prohibition of false teachers and not a prohibition of godly teachers?

4. Why would God have placed a question about women's salvation in the passage when it has nothing whatsoever to do with what Paul is talking about? When is women's salvation ever questioned in scripture?

5. Why would we ignore the inspired grammar in verse 15 and correct God's word by making it say "women" when the plural for women is not even in the Greek? Can we add to God's word and be guiltless or should we diligently try to find out what the Holy Spirit is saying?

6. Why would God force women to discriminate against men by refusing to teach the bible if a man shows up at their bible study? Does that not force us to go against our conscience? Would not Satan be able to stop the teaching of all godly women by merely sending men into all the women's bible studies? Wouldn't all the women's bible studies then have to stop if men showed up?

7. Why is tradition held over the inerrancy of God's inspired words and his inspired grammar?

Yesterday I received a review (below) from a Baptist Pastor regarding my teaching on 1 Corinthians 14. He has struggled with the passage for years and says that for the first time he now is able to understand the passage. Should we be able to consider what he says because he is a man? Pastor Jon writes:

APPARENT BREAKTHROUGH IN UNDERSTANDING THE