Personal Testimonies

[Ishamael]

Oh, my point is in testimonial habits.

As you yourself said, you bring that up in a middle of relevant conversation, as any rational person would.

You do not put a significant effort to advertise your testimony to as much people as possible. Unlike the "See all christian testimonies!" sites, which make a point of testifying in a headachingly-annoying manner.

This would be advertisement, and another reason, why only christian testimonies are found in such numbers. Other religions simply haven`t caught up with modern advertising strategies, yet.

Islam and Judaism seem to be pretty close, though.

[Guest shiloh357]

Oh, this is where we have misunderstanding then.

For me, christianity is the society of christians.

Teachings of Jesus are scriptures of christianity.

No we don't have a misunderstanding. I understand you perfectly. I am correcting your incorrect assessment of what Christianity is. Biblical Christianity is far more than a "society" or group. You are wanting to limit Christianity to the institutional Church. Christianity is a living, vibrant relationship with the Living God, the creator of the universe.

And I don`t like society of Christians, because every socium I`ve encountered so far is hostile, xenophobic and bigoted.

Frankly, I don't believe you. You have already demonstrated that you are prone to extremes, so I think you are making an unfair and baseless accusation. You consider anyone hostile that can actually stand up to your weak and unfair assessments of Christianity. The assertion of Xenophobia is particularly ridiculous considering that Christianity has so many denominations and ethnicities from every imaginable background.

While I do agree with you, that it`s simply because you are all imperfect, I see no reason, why you all reject striving for perfection and instead wallow in your xenophoby.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Most of us are striving to be like Jesus, and live up to His teachings. God's perfection is not something we will experience in this life, but we will achieve when we are gloriously transformed and received our new bodies, free of sin and sickness.

My assertion is, that while all those, who identify themselves as christians (weather you acknowledge them as such or not), claim that they are adhering to scriptures, I`ve seen FOLLOWERS step over them time and time again.

Followers. Not Jesus. Followers.

I have "stepped over them" as well. I have sinned since being a Christian. All of us have. Again, that is just an excuse on your part. I am not accountable for what other people do or don't do. I am accountable for myself. As are you. Again, you are offering up a useless and tired excuse.

My complaints were, that there are no way to identify genuinely good christians in the conditions of hostility and xenophoby, propagated by the likes of Phelps and Falwell.

Nonsense... You just don't want to look for them. You want to judge all of Christianity and all of Christians as being the reflection of a few bad apples and then complain that there are no good Christians. You are not only unfair, you are lazy. In fact, your entire diatribe on this thread reeks of bigotry. Just like some racists who have a bad experience with few bad apples of particular ethnicity and judge all members of that ethnicity to be the same, you are a religious bigot. You want to classify all of us of us as being like Westboro or the KKK or whoever, so that you can engage your bigoted rant against Christians. Don't look, but your hypocrisy is showing again.

This gives all christians universally a bad name, and THAT was my complaint.

Only among people like you who are unwilling to make the distinction between a few bad apples and the whole of Christendom. Either you are to intellectuall dull to make the distinction, or you are too wicked to want to.

If you want to be considered good - do good.

You are an atheist. What is "good?" What objective moral standard do you adhere to by which you define "good?"

[Ishamael]

You defined good in your religion - do good per your religion. Simple?

___

As for your arguments...

Do NOT forget, that I AM ATHEIST.

For me, your words about "vibrant relationship" are non-sensical, since I do not believe your God exists in the first place.

Thus, your definition of christianity is a pile of bunk for me. You reference things that I veritably know to be nonexistant.

In order to have ME assess you and christianity WITH God, you have to provide me with a model of God I can use.

Otherwise, what you are demanding, is to step over MY worldview to assess yours. Ain`t that a bit too much to ask?

So, thus NO. I do NOT want to credit YOU for work of philosophers two millenias old. I will make up my opinion upon you based on what kind of person you are.

Do you HAVE anything to show up for yourself other then Bible?

Do you have something to point at, and say - "Hey, I`m not all that bad, see?"

Or all you have is your "relationship" with Jesus? Imaginary all-forgiving friend does NOT justifies you stepping over your own moral boundaries, no matter WHAT you think of that. If one of us is a bigot, that would be you. Unlike you, I do not demand MY wrongdoungs to be overlooked.

___

In case you haven`t realised yet - you are bona fide example of christian xenophoby.

You showed in your posts, that you are unable (unwiling) to look on situation from MY point of view, and make accomodations to allow for MY model of world.

Instead, you outright demand yet again and again for me to surrender my concept and adapt yours unquestioningly, blatantly disregarding the fact, that your concepts are illogical and alien to me.

If that is so... So be it.

If I can`t judge you without hornshoeing your God in my concepts, you can`t judge me without rejecting God first.

GO ahead, consider the depth of doubt and curiosity I have, then judge me and my actions. Consider the possibility of God not existing, consider the possibility of God being not omnipotent, consider the possibility of God being malevolent... Then come and tell me your opinion.

So far you have even less ground to stand for, then I do.

[MeCajunboy]

shiloh357 - If you identify as Christian, you are one, no?

That`s the exact problem here, see. Westboro Baptists also claim, that they preach true God`s word by bible. For all I know, you and Phelps have equal chance of being right.

So, who do I pick? Who is true christian? You or him?

That is what my question was about. How do I know, that YOU, and YOUR following posesses the mainline to God? How do I know you are not impostors, who use Bible to further your ends?

THAT is what`s scary about all who worships Christ (or claims to do so, anyway). You have so many divisions, and only one is true - and every one claims THEY are real McCoys.

How does one finds the true Christians? Are they Catholics? Baptists? Protestants? Anglicans? Orthodoxes?

Or maybe they are just good people, who don`t particularly care, what you believe in, as long as you coexist with them peacefully?

MeCajunboy - statistics of what? Of epiphanies? As far as I know, only christianity ever did centralised polls on how many people had found Christ to be a life-changer. Other religions are not that particularly interested, I suppose.

There were polls on to what religion people subscribe in, as far as I remember, but to get statistics on other religion epiphanies, one will have to do them manually, or trust potentially-biased sources.

Thus, my suggestion, that one needs to know the primary language of religion, to be able to scoop up larger amount of mass-media, that would have semi-veritable statistics or material for such.

Cajunboy::::You ask? How does one finds the true Christians? Are they Catholics? Baptists? Protestants? Anglicans? Orthodoxes?

And I say, "Don't look to ones' "religion" I may not be able to visit God in a church building or synogogue, but I might be able to spend many waking hours fellowshiping with and for HIM. For many years I was in a position to be able to spend literally hours with God. At that time in my life I can say that I knew HIM quite well....and YES I represented HIM well. I now understand your question better, I think. Let me ask you a question now? If you spoke to a group of followers of God that told you that they follow the "One True God" and they were prepared to KILL anyone who didn't believe as they did, would you think they were "True followers of God?" Or if you met someone that believed they HAD the one true God in their Hearts, but they had been married several times or they told you that they felt God allows them to have sexual relations with anyone they please and/or get others pregnant, would you think they were "true followers of God." So I guess what I trying to convey to you is, "God puts in our hearts, what is right and wrong and how HE expects us to live and Love. If we can't or are not prepared to do as HE requires of us at any given time....Then YES, we are not true believers of God or we still may have a time to Go before we can call ourselves "believers of God/Christ." A person may have the power in his hands to take the life of another at some point in this world we live in, but who's to say that in the next life in the hereafter that God won't bring that person that was killed back to live with God and not allow the person who killed the other, then only the person that was dead to God may see the fires of Hell. What I'm saying here, is If one purposely disobeys God all his life may NOT be with God in Heaven as God promises all HIS peoples.

I not only know that what I read of God's words is true in my life, I also know that what I feel in my heart about God is real and I know that when God told me to "Lay down my cross" and leave it behind me and never pick up that cross again, I DID EXACTLY THAT, with HIS strength and blessings.

Be blessed

Cajubnoy

[MorningGlory]

Sigh.

I see that eloquence is wasted upon you.

I`ll try to sum up what I say in curt and understandable manner, so there would be no disagreements on what did I suggested.

______________________

Judgement is not an act of accessing one`s worth. You are mixing it with praise.

Judgement is an act of accessing, how dangerous you are to those in question, and what must be done to render the harm you might inflict to minimum.

This is the staple of all human judgements - if you commit a crime, you are punished for it, to make sure you will not do that again.

This is the staple of God`s judgement - if you commit a sin, you are punished for it.

Why does God punishes? I would say, that he punishes to prevent sin in heaven. Everyone going to heaven must be disciplined harshly to break them from their sinful nature, and that is what God`s punishment is about.

Now, note please, that you must rebate for ALL your sins, no matter how much good you`ve done. All good will be accounted for in heaven, and God praises you for it. All bad has to be rebated in Purgatory or Hell, by God`s judgement.

______________________

And thus, judgement must account for all the worst things you had done.

This is not an accessment of your worth. It is an accessment of your evil.

______________________

I`ve seen many of evil things coming from christians.

Dare I to assume each christian adheres to the word of Jesus, when I saw many of them step over those words, as if they were illegible scribbles?

.....

That is the point of it all. That is the exact problem.

Let me ask you a question. Ask yourself - do YOU have faith, that I am a good person? Would you act upon assumption, that I am good person, despite the fact that you don`t agree with atheists?

No?

Then why do you demand ME to have faith in YOUR good intentions? Why do you demand me to have it despite all the hostility I`ve already encountered here?

Why? Why would I judge you as Jesus, while you judge me as beast?

______________________

Glory: I do not have to believe to discuss. I`m perfectly able of assuming hypotetically, that I might be wrong. That, by the way, is one of the key differences between christians and atheists. Atheists DO change their opinions in the face of irrefutable facts. Christians bend over backwards to explain the new facts into the old picture.

No, you do not have to believe to discuss Christianity, that much is true. But, Ishamael, the 'facts' you present are nonsense, not bibical at all. You have to understand something to discuss it so I would suggest you read up on Jesus and his teaching and then post. Oh, and it would be helpful if you quote so we know to whom you are addressing your remarks.

[Guest shiloh357]

For me, your words about "vibrant relationship" are non-sensical, since I do not believe your God exists in the first place.

That is completely irrelevant. What you fail to understand is that you do not have to believe what I believe in order to correctly, objectively and fairly assess what a person believes and if their faith is either genuine or not. I have not asked you to believe in my relationship with Jesus, again you are addressing an issue that has not been raised.

Thus, your definition of christianity is a pile of bunk for me. You reference things that I veritably know to be nonexistant.

My definition of Christianity leaves you unable to apply your subjective, unreliable and unfair standard. It requires to you to temporarily suspend your personal feelings and apply a reasonable intelligent, reliable and objective standard that can be applied to Christians across the board. It puts limits on you, that you don't like because it requires a level of honesty and integrity that you don't want to face up to. It means that our faith would have be examined in the light of the teachings of Christ and not on the beliefs of religious nutjobs.

In order to have ME assess you and christianity WITH God, you have to provide me with a model of God I can use.

Nonsense. All that has to be done, as I have stated is that you need to either provide examples of how modern denominations are the horrible monsters you claim them to be and demonstrate the accuracy of your assessment, or retract your unfair assertions and apologize. You have made some very harsh assertions in your attempt to lump us all as being equal with the KKK and Westboro. The onus is on you to provide the evidence.

Otherwise, what you are demanding, is to step over MY worldview to assess yours. Ain`t that a bit too much to ask?

Well I don't know, but that is irrelevant since I have not made such a demand of you and neither has anyone else. Again, you are playing the drama queen. You need to stop trying to make my simple request for you to be fair and objective into some wild nonsense. It seems you want to deflect attention from your lack of objectivety by trying to pretend that you are being persecuted or something.

In case you haven`t realised yet - you are bona fide example of christian xenophoby.

You showed in your posts, that you are unable (unwiling) to look on situation from MY point of view, and make accomodations to allow for MY model of world.

Ha!! No, what I am showing is that I am not willing for you to throw me into the same pot with the KKK or any other religious nut you can come up with. I have said nothing about your "worldview." I simply am not willing to sit here while you denigrate Christianity based upon a faulty, bigoted standard that makes all Christians hate mongers. My refusal to submit to your standard is not xenophobia. I think maybe you need to look that word up instead of throwing it around, 'cause you clearly do not know how to use it.

Or all you have is your "relationship" with Jesus? Imaginary all-forgiving friend does NOT justifies you stepping over your own moral boundaries, no matter WHAT you think of that.

I never said that my relationship with Jesus justified any sinful action. Don't know where you got that...

If one of us is a bigot, that would be you. Unlike you, I do not demand MY wrongdoungs to be overlooked.

#1. What does that have to with bigotry? Maybe you need to invest in a dictionary.

#2. I never said that my wrongdoing should be overlooked. I said that my sins are forgiven. I never said that they were overlooked. That is not what forgiveness means. One can be forgiven and still have to suffer the consequences for their sins. Try actually reading what I say before responding.

Instead, you outright demand yet again and again for me to surrender my concept and adapt yours unquestioningly, blatantly disregarding the fact, that your concepts are illogical and alien to me.

I have made no such demand. You must be confusing me with someone else, either that, or you need to invest in some classes on reading comprehension. You are accusing me of things I have never said or even implied.

GO ahead, consider the depth of doubt and curiosity I have, then judge me and my actions.

I am not trying judge your actions. Your posts on this thread speak for themselves, and my assessment of your approach is true and unwavering. You continue reaffirm everything I have said with every response you make. The hole you are digging for yourself gets deeper and deeper, particularly when you try to misrepresent and mischaracterize my responses, as you have done reapeatedly in your last response.

[Guest]

I AM ATHEIST.

Think God Heard You That Time

The Ground We Stand On - Jesus Christ And Him Crucified

Good News of Jesus Christ

Благая Весть Иисуса Христа

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Иоанна 1:12 А тем, которые приняли Его, верующим во имя Его, дал власть быть чадами Божиими,

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Иоанна 3:16 Ибо так возлюбил Бог мир, что отдал Сына Своего Единородного, дабы всякий верующий в Него, не погиб, но имел жизнь вечную.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Иоанна 3:17 Ибо не послал Бог Сына Своего в мир, чтобы судить мир, но чтобы мир спасен был чрез Него.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Иоанна 5:24 Истинно, истинно говорю вам: слушающий слово Мое и верующий в Пославшего Меня имеет жизнь вечную, и на суд не приходит, но перешел от смерти в жизнь

John 10:27-29, 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Иоанна 10:27-29, 27 Овцы Мои слушаются голоса Моего, и Я знаю их; и они идут за Мною. 28 И Я даю им жизнь вечную, и не погибнут вовек; и никто не похитит их из руки Моей. 29 Отец Мой, Который дал Мне их, больше всех; и никто не может похитить их из руки Отца Моего.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Иоанна 20:31 Сие же написано, дабы вы уверовали, что Иисус есть Христос, Сын Божий, и, веруя, имели жизнь во имя Его.

http://www.kpem.org/49666.html

From God's Kids With Love

Love, Joe

[Floatingaxe]

Any religion with over thousand followers has similar accounts.

As well, as innumerable number of faith healers, witches, karma healers, Feng-Shui practitioners and **** knows who else.

I'm not talking about healings whereby people go up to get something "fixed". I'm talking about unexpected changes that occur after getting saved.

I'm with you, undone. Nowhere but in Christianity do we find sustained changes in people's lives that are for the good. We have the power of the God of the Universe, Jehovah, surging through us! Atheists may mock, doubters may jeer, but I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded by all the evidence I have seen that God is awesome!

[Ishamael]

Well...

Shiloh, you seem to be unable to read what I say. Check out points.

1) I define Christianity as society of people subscribing to teachings of Christ, which were represented in Bible.

2) Anyone, who identifies him/herself as Christian, and presents a Bible as his basis should be considered Christian.

3) An mass, Christianity, AS the society of FOLLOWERS of Christ Teachings, is xenophobic, hostile and bigoted.

4) You, personally, propagate this stereotype.

____

Simple enough?

Try to understand at last. I can`t care less for your "relationship with Jesus", as I do not believe it is real.

I assess you and Christians as persons. PERSONS, for crying out loud.

And as PERSONS, most of you are unpleasant to deal with.

As for KKK, Westboro Baptists and any other christians you`d rather not acknowledge, they add additional weight to my assessment. Knowing of them, I can NOT be sure, that you do not entertain same thoughts.

I can`t read your mind, and verify your intentions. And your wording is ENTIRELY the same, as theirs.

___

You do NOT show in your actions, that you are benevolent. In fact, quite the opposite. (On a side note, if I were in doubt, I would decide against joining Christianity after a talk with you.)

While you MIGHT be showing to Christ, how good you are, you sure don`t do so to people, and thus, people who do not accept Christ have NO reason to think of you kindly. You are pushing them away.

...Which, ironically, is directly opposite to what Jesus did. He could make the unbelievers feel comfortably with him.

___

Glory: My facts can`t be biblical, if they contradict Bible, now could they?

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, you seem to be unable to read what I say.

Untrue.

1) I define Christianity as society of people subscribing to teachings of Christ, which were represented in Bible.

I understand that.

2) Anyone, who identifies him/herself as Christian, and presents a Bible as his basis should be considered Christian.

I also understand that to be your position

3) An mass, Christianity, AS the society of FOLLOWERS of Christ Teachings, is xenophobic, hostile and bigoted.

I understand that to be your position as well. It's just that you seem to think that because I don't agree with your assessment, that I don't understand your position.

Now the problem here is in #1, you define Christians as a society of people who subscribe to the teachings of Christ, but in #3, you claim that this is society that follows Christ's teachings is xenophobic hostile and bigoted. The clear indication is that you see Jesus teachings as promoting those things, otherwise if not, then your point offered in #1 is contradictory to the #3. If Jesus did not promote hate, bigotry, xenophobia, and all the other ills you think all of us suffer from, then the Chrisitian society as you call it, is not following the teachings of Jesus. So either, we are following the teachings of Jesus or we are xenophobes, you need to choose because #1 and #3 cannot both be true.

Try to understand at last. I can`t care less for your "relationship with Jesus", as I do not believe it is real.

I don't really care.

As for KKK, Westboro Baptists and any other christians you`d rather not acknowledge, they add additional weight to my assessment. Knowing of them, I can NOT be sure, that you do not entertain same thoughts.

I can`t read your mind, and verify your intentions. And your wording is ENTIRELY the same, as theirs.

Really, so post where I have espoused hatred for other races, or hate for homosexuals. When did I say that God hates this or that person.

You do NOT show in your actions, that you are benevolent.

I am not "Benevolent," meaning that I am not intimidated by your vain attempts to smear Christianity. I don't sit here and agree with you or offer the type of response you would prefer. I have not mistreated you, I have simply assessed the lack of fairness and objectivity of your approach.

While you MIGHT be showing to Christ, how good you are, you sure don`t do so to people, and thus, people who do not accept Christ have NO reason to think of you kindly. You are pushing them away.

I am not pushing anyone away. It is just a desparate barb on your part since you cannot really bring yourself to admit that you are unfair, but at the same time cannot offer much a substantive refutation to my assessment. You are just upset and you are now trying to run a guilt trip against me and it won't work. You have gone into manipulation mode.