Invitation to atheists

[Guest Biblicist]

Dictionary defination ~ TRUTH

1.the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.

2.conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.

3.a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.

4.the state or character of being true.

5.actuality or actual existence.

6.an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.

7.honesty; integrity; truthfulness.

8.(often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.

9.agreement with a standard or original.

10.accuracy, as of position or adjustment.

11.Archaic. fidelity or constancy.

Hebrew meaning ~ eh'

[methinkshe]

If you tell me you have just jumped from an aeroplane without a parachute and survived to tell the tale, the truth is not limited by my perception that you are lying if, indeed, you managed the jump and had a happy landing!

Oh but it is. That specific truth is limited by your own personal understanding of what the airplane was that I jumped out of and all of the details concerning that "flight", whether it was a carnival ride, 747 at 35,000 feet, or a B52 whose door was 10 feet off the ground in an airforce bone yard. And since you are relying on the veracity of my statement, its "truth" is dependent on my honesty and your interpretation, and probably a bunch of other things that anybody could think of to cloud that supposed truth. Didn't Descartes argue that because of the unreliability of the senses, the only thing that cannot be doubted is thinking, because "I think, therefore I am"?

You are arguing about an individual's perception of truth. What I am trying to establish is that there IS a truth about all existence and all events whether we perceive it or not, and whether we perceive it correctly or not. We call the truth about existence and events, FACTS. Facts exist whether or not an individual perceives them. It is a fact that I am sitting here typing at my computer, whether you perceive it or not. On the other hand, I could claim to be typing but be lying and could actually be dictating, and if you were to choose to believe that, it still wouldn't alter the fact that in reality, I am NOT dictating to someone who is typing on my behalf, I am actually doing the typing myself. So an individual's perception of events and existence does not equate to truth.

Ruth

[methinkshe]

I think you have opened a can of worms akin to "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody isthere to hear it, does it make a sound?" Or, more accurately, can something exist if it is not perceived. Truth would fall under this problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

Ah, the old tree in a forest.........

How do you know a tree has fallen?

Ruth

[systemstrike_7]

I think you have opened a can of worms akin to "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody isthere to hear it, does it make a sound?" Or, more accurately, can something exist if it is not perceived. Truth would fall under this problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

Precisely.

Truth is limited to the person trying to find it. If I believe Santa Clause is real with all my heart, soul, and mind then, to me, Santa Clause exists. Wether he actually exists is no longer a concern to me, because I have made up my mind: I'm getting presents this Christmas.

So, if I were to remain hard-headed and convince myself that unicorns are real, then that is truth to me; regardless of how true it actually is. What is truth but what we personally perceive, anyway? If I see a ghost yet no one else does, who's to say I'm wrong and everyone else is right? It could just as well be the other way around.

In all reality, universal truth is a dead end. Any kind of truth stops at the personal level.

[systemstrike_7]

I think you have opened a can of worms akin to "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody isthere to hear it, does it make a sound?" Or, more accurately, can something exist if it is not perceived. Truth would fall under this problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

Ah, the old tree in a forest.........

How do you know a tree has fallen?

Ruth

Oh! Oh! Can I make the circle bigger?!?!

How do you know the tree even exists????

OH SNAP!

[methinkshe]

Interesting concept, Systemstrike - "truth is limited to the person trying to find it."

My daughter who is mentally retarded (learning difficulties if you want to be PC) has no concept of countries and continents and seas in between. As far as she is concerned, the sea is the wet stuff at the end of the sand where we go for a picnic in summer. There is no such place as America or Australia or lands that exist across an expanse of ocean in her understanding. Are you trying to tell me that truth is limited to a mentally handicapped girl's comprehension? America doesn't exist. Australia doesn't exist, because truth is limited by her (the person) trying to find it. Get real!

Ruth

[methinkshe]

Recognition or judgement of truth needs and arbiter.

Wow! Now you're talking! RECOGNITION OF, JUDGMENT OF truth....i.e. truth exists apart from recognition and judgment otherwise it could not be open to either or both. Do we have agreement, then. That truth exists, but discerning it depends on recognition and judgment, to use your words?

Ruth

[methinkshe]

Recognition or judgement of truth needs and arbiter.

Wow! Now you're talking! RECOGNITION OF, JUDGMENT OF truth....i.e. truth exists apart from recognition and judgment otherwise it could not be open to either or both. Do we have agreement, then. That truth exists, but discerning it depends on recognition and judgment, to use your words?

Ruth

Sure, I believe truth exists outside of what humans know, and also inside our world but beyond our comprehension. Sort of like Rumsfeld's Known Knowns, Known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. But then again, how do we know that for sure....

Yippee doo dah! It's taken me 3 pages to get someone to admit that truth exists outside of what humans know! That is PROGRESS!

Okay, would it be fair to say that people who have enquiring minds are searching for the truth about anything and everything? No-one with an enquiring mind is satisfied with palliatives. We really do not need them. We actually want to know the truth, not what someone else claims to be the truth. Would you agree with that?

Ruth

[methinkshe]

Recognition or judgement of truth needs and arbiter.

Wow! Now you're talking! RECOGNITION OF, JUDGMENT OF truth....i.e. truth exists apart from recognition and judgment otherwise it could not be open to either or both. Do we have agreement, then. That truth exists, but discerning it depends on recognition and judgment, to use your words?

Ruth

Sure, I believe truth exists outside of what humans know, and also inside our world but beyond our comprehension. Sort of like Rumsfeld's Known Knowns, Known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. But then again, how do we know that for sure....

Yippee doo dah! It's taken me 3 pages to get someone to admit that truth exists outside of what humans know! That is PROGRESS!

Okay, would it be fair to say that people who have enquiring minds are searching for the truth about anything and everything? No-one with an enquiring mind is satisfied with palliatives. We really do not need them. We actually want to know the truth, not what someone else claims to be the truth. Would you agree with that?

Ruth

That's probably a tough call. People have a need for the truth as its suits their own self interests--lawyers, scientists, theologians, philosophers. The ones that can pursue it out of curiosity probably have too much time on their hands. The rest just think about it in the abstract and probably don't have time to reason through it. The guy working the jackhammer is interested in the truth only as it relates to getting an accurate check for the hours he worked, or for what he is charged for his car repairs, or whether the called third strike that his kid took in a little league game was really a strike.

Jelly. Ceiling. Nails.

Oh, come on, let's stop beating around the proverbial bush picking on lawyers and scientists, philosophers and theologians and any other wild beast on the prowl in the bush - let is just agree between you and I what you said in your previous post, to whit: "Sure, I believe truth exists outside of what humans know," and move on from there. Otherwise we shall spend another three pages beating around the bush and getting no further than flushing out a flea or something equally insignificant.

Ruth

[ted]

I think Christians are like your daughter. She is unable to determine truth.

What a statement.

So, Christians can only "determine" truth if they are not Christians? Once someone makes a decision to accept Jesus as their Savior, they become unable to determine truth?

We become stupid all of a sudden, as if we lay down our intelligence at the threshold before we walk through the door to Christ?

Christians 'volunteer' to have only the Bible to trust. Nothing else.

This statement is just as confused, but does have a shade of accuracy to it. Christians put trust in the Bible and take it as truth concerning God's plan of salvation, as well as a host of other events as presented to us, but there is truth outside of the Bible, as well. In example, a working light bulb is a "truth", but is found nowhere in the Bible.

We also have the testimonies of others. We can weigh whether or not these are "truth" as we hear them.

We also have archaeological "truths" which back up some of the events of the Bible. We can accept those discoveries as truth, and as partial real-time evidence of selected Biblical claims.

But, I will say that I take the Bible as truth concerning the events it relates, as well. Sometimes, it's the only recording of historical events it describes, and in other cases, there independent recordings of the same events. But, for me, it is reliable in everything it gives us, and has yet to be disproved.

Christians rely on it's authors to give the truth no matter how mind boggling it is.

We have faith that it's authors are relating truth, yes.

That's mind boggling to you? Why?

Thanks,

t.