Were there 2 liars at the fall or just 1?

[OopsMartin]

Yes, thank you. That is what i'm saying. I wish I could read Hebrew though. That would help!

The distinction of the difference in wording would be the same.

[OopsMartin]

We have the evidence. We have God's actual quote, then we have Eve's statement that adds to that quote.

God said to Adam, 'You must not eat of it.' But where, in Genesis is that event recorded? Where did God say that to Adam?

This is an actual quote from God. The point here is that not all the events that did happen and not all of what God said to them are recorded. God told Adam his command twice at least but the second time is not recorded.

Besides the serpent didn't even question the woman on what God said to Adam, he questioned what God said to THEM, and the woman replied what God told THEM. So why is thier exchange of words even treated as if it was about what God told Adam before Eve was created?

The woman, when she quoted God, said that they were told not to eat of the tree that is in the middle of the garden. In neither of the forms of command given to Adam did God speak of the tree's location. In 1:29, though God tells them which trees they may eat from, every tree having fruit with seed.

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You (plural) must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the MIDDLE of the garden, and you (plural) must not touch it, or you (plural) will die.

Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground

[EricH]

We have the evidence. We have God's actual quote, then we have Eve's statement that adds to that quote.

The quote does not give you evidence that she added to anything, because we do not know all of God's actual words to her. We were not there to hear it. We cannot assume it. All we know is that Eve said, God said. Just because her words of what God said to her are different than what God said to Adam, does not mean that God did not say them to her. There is no law of logic that says God cannot say it differently. There would be nothing wrong with God making the restriction more precise when He gave it to Eve.

We also cannot assume that Adam gave the restriction to Eve instead of God Himself. We have no basis to not believe that when Eve said God said, she meant that He said it to her.

Assumptions are simply NOT evidence.

..

quite so. This whole thread is full of possibilities, assunptions, and posters opinions. No solid evidence can be found as to who said what to whom and where or when it was said.

You are correct. Any position one comes to requires some sort of leap.

[firehill]

We have the evidence. We have God's actual quote, then we have Eve's statement that adds to that quote.

The quote does not give you evidence that she added to anything, because we do not know all of God's actual words to her. We were not there to hear it. We cannot assume it. All we know is that Eve said, God said. Just because her words of what God said to her are different than what God said to Adam, does not mean that God did not say them to her. There is no law of logic that says God cannot say it differently. There would be nothing wrong with God making the restriction more precise when He gave it to Eve.

We also cannot assume that Adam gave the restriction to Eve instead of God Himself. We have no basis to not believe that when Eve said God said, she meant that He said it to her.

Assumptions are simply NOT evidence.

..

quite so. This whole thread is full of possibilities, assunptions, and posters opinions. No solid evidence can be found as to who said what to whom and where or when it was said.

You are correct. Any position one comes to requires some sort of leap.

I take the above to mean, 'any position one comes to regarding Eve's quote requires some sort of leap.' Do I understand you correctly?

If so then, some sort of leap? What do you mean by 'leap' and what kind do you mean by 'some sort'? What are you saying?

[eric]

This thread as far as I'm concerned, has run it's course and has nowhere else to go.

[None]

I found it quite useful.

[firehill]

This thread as far as I'm concerned, has run it's course and has nowhere else to go.

Well then let's have a look to see if indeed it has run it's course.

Under question is, did Eve tell the truth or add to God's word?

1) There is evidence that God spoke to them both about the prohibition because it is encompassed in what they could eat, every tree that has fruit with seed in it.

2) The scriptural context of Eve's quote supports WHEN Eve was deceived according to her heart and thoughts and actions which was after the serpent lied.

3) There is evidence that God gave his prohibition more than once to Adam in different form therefore God could have given it to Eve in different form also since we know that he spoke to them both about what they could eat which encompassed what they could not eat.

4) There is no evidence that she added to God's word. She wasn't reprimanded, God didn't correct here, Adam didn't, Paul didn't, the whole bible is silent on such a matter. To add to God's word is a very serious matter yet the bible is silent about Eve having done so.

5) The difference between what Eve said, God said, and what God told Adam in chp 2 is not in itself evidence that proves that she added to God's word.

With ALL this scriptural evidence in mind, it would only be fair TO the bible to say that she told the truth because that's all the evidence IT GIVES! This is what the bible says because this is only what it gives to us regarding the matter.

Did I miss anything?

I forgot to post earlier this:

We have the evidence. We have God's actual quote, then we have Eve's statement that adds to that quote.

What God told Adam does not prove that she added to God's prohibition since she quoted God using the plural 'you.' Eve didn't add to what God told Adam because she quoted what God told THEM. That's the point. Not what God told Adam.

[OopsMartin]

You are correct. Any position one comes to requires some sort of leap.

I take the above to mean, 'any position one comes to regarding Eve's quote requires some sort of leap.' Do I understand you correctly?

If so then, some sort of leap? What do you mean by 'leap' and what kind do you mean by 'some sort'? What are you saying?

It may be that he is suggesting that he cannot bring himself to make a firm conclusion on the question, so he doesn't think anyone else should be able to either.

I am leaping on my way.......

[methinkshe]

This thread as far as I'm concerned, has run it's course and has nowhere else to go.

Well then let's have a look to see if indeed it has run it's course.

Under question is, did Eve tell the truth or add to God's word?

1) There is evidence that God spoke to them both about the prohibition because it is encompassed in what they could eat, every tree that has fruit with seed in it.

2) The scriptural context of Eve's quote supports WHEN Eve was deceived according to her heart and thoughts and actions which was after the serpent lied.

3) There is evidence that God gave his prohibition more than once to Adam in different form therefore God could have given it to Eve in different form also since we know that he spoke to them both about what they could eat which encompassed what they could not eat.

4) There is no evidence that she added to God's word. She wasn't reprimanded, God didn't correct here, Adam didn't, Paul didn't, the whole bible is silent on such a matter. To add to God's word is a very serious matter yet the bible is silent about Eve having done so.

5) The difference between what Eve said, God said, and what God told Adam in chp 2 is not in itself evidence that proves that she added to God's word.

With ALL this scriptural evidence in mind, it would only be fair TO the bible to say that she told the truth because that's all the evidence IT GIVES! This is what the bible says because this is only what it gives to us regarding the matter.

Did I miss anything?

I forgot to post earlier this:

We have the evidence. We have God's actual quote, then we have Eve's statement that adds to that quote.

What God told Adam does not prove that she added to God's prohibition since she quoted God using the plural 'you.' Eve didn't add to what God told Adam because she quoted what God told THEM. That's the point. Not what God told Adam.

I have one more observation.

In Gen 2:16 God says to Adam:

"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat,"

In Gen 3:2 Eve says to the serpent: "we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:"

Seems to me Eve is misquoting God again - what has happened to "freely eat"? But on this occasion she is taking away from God's words.

If there is evidence that Eve misquoted God by taking from His words - and the PLAIN meaning of Scripture, sans assumptions of private and unrecorded conversations, provides such evidence - then there is no good reason to disbelieve that Eve also added to God's words. In fact there is a neat correlation with this opening deception of adding to and taking from God's words, with the warning in Revelation 18:19 about not adding to or taking from the words of the prophecy.

Ruth

[methinkshe]

This thread as far as I'm concerned, has run it's course and has nowhere else to go.

Well then let's have a look to see if indeed it has run it's course.

Under question is, did Eve tell the truth or add to God's word?

1) There is evidence that God spoke to them both about the prohibition because it is encompassed in what they could eat, every tree that has fruit with seed in it.

2) The scriptural context of Eve's quote supports WHEN Eve was deceived according to her heart and thoughts and actions which was after the serpent lied.

3) There is evidence that God gave his prohibition more than once to Adam in different form therefore God could have given it to Eve in different form also since we know that he spoke to them both about what they could eat which encompassed what they could not eat.

4) There is no evidence that she added to God's word. She wasn't reprimanded, God didn't correct here, Adam didn't, Paul didn't, the whole bible is silent on such a matter. To add to God's word is a very serious matter yet the bible is silent about Eve having done so.

5) The difference between what Eve said, God said, and what God told Adam in chp 2 is not in itself evidence that proves that she added to God's word.

With ALL this scriptural evidence in mind, it would only be fair TO the bible to say that she told the truth because that's all the evidence IT GIVES! This is what the bible says because this is only what it gives to us regarding the matter.

Did I miss anything?

I forgot to post earlier this:

We have the evidence. We have God's actual quote, then we have Eve's statement that adds to that quote.

What God told Adam does not prove that she added to God's prohibition since she quoted God using the plural 'you.' Eve didn't add to what God told Adam because she quoted what God told THEM. That's the point. Not what God told Adam.

I have one more observation.

In Gen 2:16 God says to Adam:

"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat,"

In Gen 3:2 Eve says to the serpent: "we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:"

Seems to me Eve is misquoting God again - what has happened to "freely eat"? But on this occasion she is taking away from God's words.

If there is evidence that Eve misquoted God by taking from His words - and the PLAIN meaning of Scripture, sans assumptions of private and unrecorded conversations, provides such evidence - then there is no good reason to disbelieve that Eve also added to God's words. In fact there is a neat correlation with this opening deception of adding to and taking from God's words, with the warning in Revelation 18:19 about not adding to or taking from the words of the prophecy.

Ruth

Ok...ok. I would like to say this. I do agree with firehill on this point.

4) There is no evidence that she added to God's word. She wasn't reprimanded, God didn't correct here, Adam didn't, Paul didn't, the whole bible is silent on such a matter. To add to God's word is a very serious matter yet the bible is silent about Eve having done so.

I would think that there would be some type of "Rember Lot's wife" type of dealing. Meaning there would have been a dont go after the way of Eve who added and took away from what God said. Fact is...there is not.

Also Ruth. I think it is nit-picking to find words that she did not say. Let me ask have you ever para-phrased the Bible. Well according to this logic when ever you para-phrase you take away or add to God's Word.

Did Paul take away anthing or add to the Word of God....No. But there was a progression. Revelation was added, and Paul's view increased. Could we not say so with the Eve's words. They sound more progressive, then anything.

I thought that was the object of this kind of "contextual analysis" - to find words that weren't recorded and build a doctrine on such omissions.

Ruth