Who is Israel?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

So the argument is over who owns God.

I completely fail to see how you got that interpretation out of my statment.

I was replying in responce to your last two post....sorry for the confusion.

Nebula: Jew and Gentiles believers are both equal in Christ and belong to one body in Christ.

My observation is that there is a difference in how this concept is perceived.

One side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus are joined into our faith.

The other side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus have come into the fullness of their own faith.

See the difference?

[Guest shiloh357]

This discussion is a matter of seeings thing spiritually are carnally.

Yes, and those who don't see it YOUR way are seeing things carnally; is that the point you are trying to make?

So the argument is over who owns God.

That is an unfair and outrageous assertion and has no basis in fact.

Yes, God chose Israel first as a people but that does not give them ownership of God.

Jedi, I would like for you to copy and paste where anyone said that Jews or anyone else "owns" God. Either produce the evidence or retract and apologize for bearing false witness.

So people need to stop saying its thier religion or my religion.

Huh???

So dont get all puffed up about history because history also reveals a lot of shame and misfortune on their behalf.

Who is getting puffed about history?? I think you are just lashing out at this point. So far, you have not really addressed in this post any of the responses made to you. All you are doing in the above post is accusing anyone who disagrees with you as being carnal, puffed up about history and making false accusations about us claiming that the Jews own God. It is just one accusation after another and no evidence to back any of it up.

This is not a matter of seeing things carnally or spiritually. It is a matter of being biblically accurate instead of trying inject the Christian faith with bogus made up, carnal terms like "spiritual Israel." Trying to argue the Bible using concepts that don't even appear in the Bible goes a bit beyond the pale and really leaves you without any firm ground to accuse anyone else of carnality.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

So the argument is over who owns God.

That is an unfair and outrageous assertion and has no basis in fact.

Yes, God chose Israel first as a people but that does not give them ownership of God.

Jedi, I would like for you to copy and paste where anyone said that Jews or anyone else "owns" God. Either produce the evidence or retract and apologize for bearing false witness.

I was responding to nebulas idea that Chiristians may have the ideas the when a Jew is born-agian that they are now joining the Christian religion. Then she says vise versa that some people think the Jews are coming back into THEIR OWN religion.

This is not unfair to say that both misconceptions are wrong. No-one owns this salvation system but God himself. No one needs to play silly race games like this but should embrace each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. The Kingdom of God belongs to all of us and Christ is the head. All I have seen on here lately is the complaints about how Christianity is somehow been hijacked from Jews. People like this need to relize that they are speaking agaisnt the body of Christ. I agree that the Christianity began in Israel and now has spread throught out the world as Christ has commanded, but this does not mean that its owned by Israel nor does it mean that is owned by any other country. It would be fair to say that Israel rejected the gospel so how can it be theirs. Again no one owns it but God. He gets all the credit. This would be like saying I own the air that I breath. No the air belongs to God your just borrowing to live just like everyone else.

[Guest shiloh357]

So the argument is over who owns God.

That is an unfair and outrageous assertion and has no basis in fact.

Yes, God chose Israel first as a people but that does not give them ownership of God.

Jedi, I would like for you to copy and paste where anyone said that Jews or anyone else "owns" God. Either produce the evidence or retract and apologize for bearing false witness.

I was responding to nebulas idea that Chiristians may have the ideas the when a Jew is born-agian that they are now joining the Christian religion. Then she says vise versa that some people think the Jews are coming back into THEIR OWN religion.

This is not unfair to say that both misconceptions are wrong. No-one owns this salvation system but God himself. No one needs to play silly race games like this but should embrace each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. The Kingdom of God belongs to all of us and Christ is the head. All I have seen on here lately is the complaints about how Christianity is somehow been hijacked from Jews. People like this need to relize that they are speaking agaisnt the body of Christ. I agree that the Christianity began in Israel and now has spread throught out the world as Christ has commanded, but this does not mean that its owned by Israel nor does it mean that is owned by any other country. It would be fair to say that Israel rejected the gospel so how can it be theirs. Again no one owns it but God. He gets all the credit. This would be like saying I own their air that I breath. No the air belongs to God your just borrowing to live just like everyone else.

It is not a matter of it being "owned."

Biblical Christianity finds its expressions in the Old Testament. The New Testament was written out of Old Testament knowledge. The New Testament is written in the terminology of the festivals and the sacrifices. It was written by believing Jews who remained Jews. The first apostles did not see that Jesus came to inaugerate a new faith. Rather he was the fulfillment of the Hebrew faith that already existed. The New Testament is Hebraic through and through. That is not a matter of saying the Jews own it; rather it was through that cultural context that gospel was communicated.

What seem to be prone to do is read into things and assign to other people's posts the motives and values YOU think they are operating from. You seem to be responding to what you think are saying and it is clear you are not reading what they said. Otherwise there is no conceivable way you could have misconstrued Nebula's words.

[Guest shiloh357]

Do you believe that God is Triune brother? Where does it specifically say that He is in the Word?

Do you believe that man has a sinful nature? Where does it specifcally say that in the Word?

If so why do you continue to say show us where it say this. Then when someone says here is what scripture says. You say "well you have to see in the context of what Paul was saying".

The difference is that the concept of the Trinity is Scriptural even if the word Trinity is not used. Whereas, the neither the concept of a "spirtual Israel" nor the term exist in Scripture.

The word "Israel" appears 71 times in the New Testament. In EACH case the word is used in the normative sense. It is never applied to Gentiles, the NT nowhere even implies that Gentile believers are "spiritual Israel." Such a concept would never have entered into the minds of any of the NT writers. Gentiles are grafted into Israel (the Kingdom) just as unbelieving Jews are regrafted into it.

As for context... Context simply refers to individual verses or statements and their relationship to the line of thought being developed by the author. Paying attention to context allows to interpret the words of the author in the light of the object the author has in view. One of the biggest errors you can make is to see interpretation as subjective. It isn't. It is objective. Interpretation is not about what it means to you, but what the author is trying to convey. The subjedtive part is application, and it gets confused with interpretation. Therefore, there is no such thing as "my intperpretation" or "your interpretation." It is the responsibility of the reader to ascertain and seek to understand the intent of the author, not to interpret the author through the filter of the reader's own preconceived notions.

God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). So if we are children of the promise(Christ); and even more so, since we are considered brothers with Christ, and Christ is a Jew, how is it that gentiles are not tied spritually to Israel.

I did not say that Gentiles are not tied spiritually to Israel. I said that the Gentile believers are not "Israel," spritually or otherwise. They are one subset, one part of Israel, but they do not comprise any entity called "spiritual Israel." Evidently, you have not been reading what I have written.

IN CHRIST there is not Jew or Gentile....just one new man...one new creature.

That is not exactly what the Bible says. What the Bible says is that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free.

The problem (and this goes back to the issue of context) is that the above remark (neither Jew nor Greek) is usualy ripped from its context and misapplied to an issue that Paul was not addressing. When Paul said there was neither Jew nor Greek, he was talking about access into to God's grace. He mentions three things in that verse (Gal 3:28). He mentions race (Jew, Gentile), gender (male, female) and social status (slave, free). Paul's point in that verse was that racial pedigree, gender and social status did not give one an advantage, or put one at a disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned. He was not saying that in Christ, Jews cease being Jews. Paul still considered himself a Jew and Pharisee until his death. He did not stop being a Jew.

Would anyone argue from the same verse (Gal. 3:28) that men cease being men and that there are no gender distinctives in Christ? Should women and men just walk about naked since there is no male or female in Christ? It is just as absurd to interpret the first part of the verse to claim that Jewish distinctives have been erased in Christ.

[firehill]

He mentions race (Jew, Gentile), gender (male, female) and social status (slave, free). Paul's point in that verse was that racial pedigree, gender and social status did not give one an advantage, or put one at a disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned.

Here's what makes no sense whatsoever. For the life of me I cannot make sense of this argument no matter how long I try. Access to God's grace was NEVER an issue for the gentile, slave, female regarding those who became part of Israel in the OT! The only issue was one of inheritance which the male jew percevied he had privledge to. God's grace could always be accessed by all who joined the congregation of Israel but only the jewish male had the privlidges of inheritance in which case Paul explaines that now all whether jew or gentile, free or slave or male or female, have become SONS of God and therefore hiers IF they are in Christ. NO ONE had the privilege of sonship except for the jewish male. This is what Paul is talking about in Galatians, hence, we are all now SONS IF in Christ.

I guess to put it simply I'll ask, WHO ELSE besides the jewish male was EVER given the privilege of sonship?

First it's about all being SONS then IF a SON (which one is ONLY IF in Christ) then an hier...

Eph 4:6 & 7

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His son into our hearts, crying

[Guest shiloh357]

Here's what makes no sense whatsoever. For the life of me I cannot make sense of this argument no matter how long I try. Access to God's grace was NEVER an issue for the gentile, slave, female regarding those who became part of Israel in the OT!

It makes sense when you put the verse in its context. The problem is you are confusing issues. In Galatians, Paul is addressing Gentile believers who think they need to become Jews to enter into the Kingdom of God, and it is that heresy that Paul is refuting. Galatians 3 must be read in the greater context and purpose of the book of Galatians.

Paul explaines that now all have become SONS of God and therefore hiers IF they are in Christ.

That may be true, but that in no way argues for an abrogation of Jewish/Gentile distinctives. It does not change anything. It simply means that despite race, gender and social status (all of which played a part in the culture of Paul's day), they play no part in one's salvation or one's standing before God.

[firehill]

Praise God for the Word

Eph 2:10-15 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye (gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace (Amen!!), Who hath made both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain ONE NEW MAN (one new race after God which was God's orginal intent), so making peace.

And I'll add to that:

Ephesians 3:5-6 says:

which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel

[Guest shiloh357]

Praise God for the Word

Eph 2:10-15 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye (gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace (Amen!!), Who hath made both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain ONE NEW MAN (one new race after God which was God's orginal intent), so making peace.

Nothing in that passage even alludes to Gentiles becoming Israel. It simply says what I have been saying. Paul tells the Ephesians, that they have been brought near and have become members of the commonwealth of Israel. Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ, but it does not follow logically, scripturally or hermeneutically that Gentile believers have become Israel.

[Vickilynn]

Did I write "non-believing"?

Sorry - my head is a bit foggy with a cold right now.

What I meant was a Jew who didn't believe - when they actually come to belief -

Then, do they join into our faith? Or do they come into the fullness of their faith?

(I believe they come into the fullness of their faith. )

Shalom Nebula,

There is no "our faith" or "their faith." Faith is in G-d and His Messiah.

And for the rest of the argument, it's not what We say, but what the Scriptures says. The NATURAL branches of the Olive Tree are ethnic Israel. Gentiles are grafted INTO that tree, with the root being Jesus. Jews who believe in Jesus are not grafted into the Gentile faith. There is no Gentile faith. That's simply not Scriptural. The "faith" is in the Messiah Jesus and His salvation!

Jesus came to save the Jew first, then the Gentile. That was G-d's plan from the beginning. Please read it for yourself:

Romans 1:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

Matthew 10:

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And proclaim as you go, saying,(F) 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matthew 15:

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."