Who is Israel?

[Guest shiloh357]

I was asking in regard to those who joined Israel in the OT. In what way were those who became Israelites only a part of Israel.

What is so hard to understand? They are partakers in Israel; they do not constitute "Israel" on their own apart from the rest of the nation.

[firehill]

I was asking in regard to those who joined Israel in the OT. In what way were those who became Israelites only a part of Israel.

What is so hard to understand? They are partakers in Israel; they do not constitute "Israel" on their own apart from the rest of the nation.

See I thought you were saying something else. Perhaps you thought I was meaning something else.

Ofcourse they didn't constitute Israel on their own apart from the rest of the nation. Agreed.

[nebula]

SO in the OT gentiles could became 'Israelites' but not in the NT?

In the OT, Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to be considered a part of Israel (circumcised, eat kosher, sacrifice at the Temple, etc.).

In Acts and the Epistles, we read about the conflict Jewish believers (the bulk and leadership of the "Church" then) had with Gentile believers. Many Jewish believers preached that the Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism in order to follow Jesus. The Apostles ruled otherwise. Thus, the Gentile believers were not required to become a part of Israel in order to be saved.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

In the OT, Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to be considered a part of Israel (circumcised, eat kosher, sacrifice at the Temple, etc.).

In Acts and the Epistles, we read about the conflict Jewish believers (the bulk and leadership of the "Church" then) had with Gentile believers. Many Jewish believers preached that the Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism in order to follow Jesus. The Apostles ruled otherwise. Thus, the Gentile believers were not required to become a part of Israel in order to be saved.

It would be also wrong to teach that Christian Jews are still required to follow Judaism to be saved. (circumcision, eating Kosher, animal sacrifices, etc...) They were only shadows of what was to come under the New Covenant. These were completed in Christ. These things play no part in ones salvation for Jew or Gentile. They do have spiritual implications to learn from. Is it ok for a Jew or anyone else to practise these things? Sure, except for the animal sacrifices, but they are not required to be saved. Someone that teaches others including Jews that they are required to follow these are simply not under the New Covenant of Christ and aer bringing people under bondage. These people are what Paul called wolves in sheeps cloting.

[nanasimmons]

There is plenty of verses in the NT that there is a fleshly vs. spiritual

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

By Arthur Pink

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

shiloh

You cannot rely on any direct statement from Scripture but must rely on slanting certain verses in order to make them appear to say what you are saying. But I find that when I place them back into the line of thought and the context in which they were originally written, the intent of author demonstrates a completely different purpose in pinnng those words.

Shiloh

[nebula]

It would be also wrong to teach that Christian Jews are still required to follow Judaism to be saved. (circumcision, eating Kosher, animal sacrifices, etc...) They were only shadows of what was to come under the New Covenant. These were completed in Christ. These things play no part in ones salvation for Jew or Gentile. They do have spiritual implications to learn from. Is it ok for a Jew or anyone else to practise these things? Sure, except for the animal sacrifices, but they are not required to be saved. Someone that teaches others including Jews that they are required to follow these are simply not under the New Covenant of Christ and aer bringing people under bondage. These people are what Paul called wolves in sheeps cloting.

OK - has anyone here advocated the need for Jewish believers to "follow Judaism to be saved?" Where do you keep jumping to these conclusions?

1 Corinthians 7:17-18

17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

[Guest shiloh357]

It would be also wrong to teach that Christian Jews are still required to follow Judaism to be saved. (circumcision, eating Kosher, animal sacrifices, etc...) They were only shadows of what was to come under the New Covenant. These were completed in Christ. These things play no part in ones salvation for Jew or Gentile. They do have spiritual implications to learn from. Is it ok for a Jew or anyone else to practise these things? Sure, except for the animal sacrifices, but they are not required to be saved. Someone that teaches others including Jews that they are required to follow these are simply not under the New Covenant of Christ and aer bringing people under bondage. These people are what Paul called wolves in sheeps cloting.

OK - has anyone here advocated the need for Jewish believers to "follow Judaism to be saved?" Where do you keep jumping to these conclusions?

1 Corinthians 7:17-18

17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

They jump to those ridiculous, conclusions because they are reading our remarks through the filter of their preconceived notions about our position. It amounts to assigning their own values to us.

[nebula]

I surmise as such; however, I was regarding it more expedient for him to come to understand this himself.

[Vickilynn]

I believe the church of God is the true Israel of God today just as many on this board do and just as many fine Christians through the ages have believed