Is Jesus Yahweh?

[Yahweh is salvation]

Jesus caled him self "Son of man" , that kind of means is equal to us then, doesn't it?

That is not reason He used it. Actually Jesus called Himself "THE Son of man." That word "the" is significant because it it refers to a Messianic prophecy about "The Son of Man" out of Daniel:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed (Daniel 7:13-14)

Jesus was referring to the prophecy in Daniel when He applied it to Himself, and his contemporaries would have picked up on that particularly the more learned ones. "The Son of Man" was a title for the Messiah, and by calling Himself "The Son of Man" He was declaring Himself to be the Messiah. He was assiging the above prophecy to Himself.

Even if one claims it is nothing more than a reference to His humanity, that does not mean Jesus is not God. Jesus is both fully God and fully man according to the Bible.

According to the Bible? I say according to man's interpretation of the bible.

Yahweh is salvation I like the tenor of your posts.

Thanx Mutzrein, thats is what I was trying to say. When you read the Bible its you and Jesus and nobody else.

Again thank you and God bless you my brother.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus caled him self "Son of man" , that kind of means is equal to us then, doesn't it?

That is not reason He used it. Actually Jesus called Himself "THE Son of man." That word "the" is significant because it it refers to a Messianic prophecy about "The Son of Man" out of Daniel:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed (Daniel 7:13-14)

Jesus was referring to the prophecy in Daniel when He applied it to Himself, and his contemporaries would have picked up on that particularly the more learned ones. "The Son of Man" was a title for the Messiah, and by calling Himself "The Son of Man" He was declaring Himself to be the Messiah. He was assiging the above prophecy to Himself.

Even if one claims it is nothing more than a reference to His humanity, that does not mean Jesus is not God. Jesus is both fully God and fully man according to the Bible.

Ok, ok.

Then explain to me what does the " lamb of God " mean to you. And how do you understand the ( Revelation 1.1 ). This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon.

How would Jesus being the "Lamb of God" defy the fact that He is God? It simply refers to His role on earth as a substitutionary sacrifice for sin. It has no bearing on His Deity.

As for the verse out of Revelation... First of all you need a more reliable translation. The version you are using reads more like parphrase. Here is what the verse acually says:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave a him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John (Rev. 1:1)

This verse is not saying that God the Father revealed somethig to Jesus that Jesus did know. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is not the revelation TO Jesus Christ.

It is simply referring to Christ's mediatorial role as the one to whom God the Father gave the revelation to reveal to others. The Father simply put it in Jesus hands for Jesus to give to John.

You still have not answered the questions I have asked you concerning the testimony of Jesus in Revelation concerning His own Deity. Why do you continue to evade answering those questions?

[BurnForChrist]

But you know all this is rather academic and nothing to do with the gospel. In fact quite the opposite.

It has everything to do with the Gospel. A mere man could not die for the sins of the world. If Jesus is not God, then he is no different than Mohammud or Buddha. He is nothing more than a good teacher. You still have not dealt with Jesus' own admission that He is God.

I agree, a mere man could not atone for the sin of the world. But he was not a mere man.

So, incase you are wondering what I DO believe of Jesus I will say this.

I believe and proclaim that Jesus is the one and only true son of God, conceived of God's spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. I have no hesitation in saying He is my Lord & Saviour.

You have just defined Him as God, but reject Him as God. That is a strange way your mind works. Jesus could not have the perfect attributes attributed to the Father and not be God, because God says, there is no one like Him. So for Jesus to have God the Father's attributes would make him like God.

Furthermore, because you obvious don't know Hebrew, you don't understand what "Son of God" means. It does not mean that Jesus is the offspring of God. It is a title that denotes equality, in Hebrew. One has to some mighty fancy theological gymnastics to get around the Bible.

If Jesus is your Lord and Savior, howcome you don't believe Him when He says He is God?

Jesus caled him self "Son of man" , that kind of means is equal to us then, doesn't it?

Yes he was again 100% man and 100% GOD. Son of Man and Son of GOD, he was GOD incarnate, and a man (John 1:1; 1 Timothy 2:5) also called the hypostatic union for you theologians .

This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon. (Revelation 1.1)

Even when Jesus is up in heaven he still does what GOD wants him to do. If that makes him God or not it's up to us individualy to figure out. Please my brother don't listen to the church and the priests . Listen to your Bible.

God bless you.

Thanks for your reply,

As a matter of fact I do listen to my bible . And as I read my bible I cannot refuse the fact that scripture indeed says that Jesus is both GOD and Man. And I indeed am not smart so if I know something to be true, its not b/c I figured it out, but that the Spirit of truth has revealed it to me.

1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Romans 9:5 "of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen."

Philippians 5:5 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."

Let me know if you need more scriptures . And to answer your original question again, yes he was man, and because he was a man, when we are saved we receive the Holy Spirit, a spirit of adoption by which we cry 'abba, father' and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:15, 17) making him both our GOD and are elder brother, and he is not ashamed to call us brethren (Hebrews 2:11-12; Psalm 22:22). He is our king, our LORD, our GOD, and we are his servants, in which we live whether present or absent from him, we make it our aim to please him (2 Cor. 5:8-9). He came not to do his will, nor seek his own honor, or fame, but the will of the father, healing, and doing many miracles in the name of the Father (John 6:38; John 8:49, 54 also Deuteronomy 18:18).

Edited August 22, 2007 by BurnForChrist

[Guest shiloh357]

Even when Jesus is up in heaven he still does what GOD wants him to do. If that makes him God or not it's up to us individualy to figure out.

No it is not up to us individually to figure out. The Bible does not leave it up to us. The Bible is explicit in its declaration that Jesus is God in both Old and New Testaments. It is up to us to believe the truth. It is up to you to stop calling God the Father a liar believe what His own testimony that Jesus is God.

No Deity of Christ = No Gospel and no Salvation.

[Mutzrein]

Thanks for your reply,

As a matter of fact I do listen to my bible . And as I read my bible I cannot refuse the fact that scripture indeed says that Jesus is both GOD and Man. And I indeed am not smart so if I know something to be true, its not b/c I figured it out, but that the Spirit of truth has revealed it to me.

1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Romans 9:5 "of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen."

Philippians 5:5 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."

Let me know if you need more scriptures . And to answer your original question again, yes he was man, and because he was a man, when we are saved we receive the Holy Spirit, a spirit of adoption by which we cry 'abba, father' and if children, then heirs

[Guest shiloh357]

Philippians 2:5 says does not say that that Jesus is God. Again, man with a preconceived notion is attempting to find scripture to support the doctrine. Where does it say that Jesus IS God? Does being in the form OF God make him God. No. I am made in the image of God. Does that make me God?

Mutzrein,

Here is the obvious problem you are overlooking with Phil 2:5. Notice that the passage states that Jesus did 4 things:

1. Made Himself of no reputation

2. Took on the form of a bondservant (as opposed to the previous form of God)

3. Came in the likness of man

4. Humbled Himself to the point that He became obedient to death.

All 4 of these things Jesus became, according to Paul. Meaning that He was previously NOT any of those things. All 4 of those things had to become true of Jesus in order for Jesus to be a sacrifice, particularly becoming obedient to death.

In verse 5 of Phillippians where it says that Jesus made himself of no reputation, the Greek says that Jesus emptied Himself. The following two verses explain what that emptying entailed. Jesus emptied Himself of Divine privilege. It was not an emptying of His Divine nature.

These things according to the grammatical structure were previously NOT true of Jesus at some point in history. Jesus at some point was in the form of God, was not in the likeness of man and was not obedient and thus not subject to death, prior to appearance on earth.

On the cross, when Jesus died, He died at the exact moment He chose to die. His life was not taken from Him. He excercized personal power over death when He gave up His Spirit at the exact moment the Passover Lamb was killed at the Temple.

I have noticted that you seem to confuse the issue of Deity with relationship. You and others seem to think that if Jesus is God, that He would not subject to the Will of the Father, and that because He is subject to His Father, that it makes Him less than God.

The Bible Col 1:16 teaches that Jesus created the universe (In the beginning GOD created...) So Jesus is God.

God the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8. So Jesus is God.

Jesus attributes Deity to Himself in Revelation by calling Himself "the first and the last," a phrase that can only be attributed to an eternal God, as it is a phrase that denotes eternal existence. So Jesus is God.

The term "Son of God" denotes equality with God. So Jesus is God.

The prophet Isaiah calls Jesus The Might God and Father (creator) of eternity. So Jesus is God.

Frankly, Mutzrein, the Deity of Jesus is provable, and folks like you are simply in a state of denial. You need to start believing the Bible.

[Rebmilc]

Mutzrein, you have made a lot of statements regarding wether or not we have gained the belief in the Deity of Christ from the Bible. But so far you have come up with not one convincing, provable, argument that it isn't. In fact it can be seen from your posts that you ignore the answers that we have given to your previous questions. I am reminded of the old proverb "There are none so blind as those that don't want to see". I have proved this statement again and again after thirty years of debating Christ with the cults. As Shiloh has already stated the truth of the Deity of Christ is quite provable from the Scriptures, but sadly you don't want to see it proved. If you want to hang on to your false beliefs, then that is fine, I accept that you have every right to believe what you want, but please don't say that the Bible teaches those beliefs because frankly you are up the creek without a paddle.

Check out the following Scriptures, these are just a few of the many that I could provide. Read them without your pre-conceived ideas about what YOU THINK the Bible teaches and see what conclusion you come to.

Jehovah is our Savior

"Besides Me there is no Savior"--Isaiah 43:3,10; 45:21,22; 60:16; 49:26

Jesus is Our Savior

"Savior of the World"--1 John 4; Luke 2:11; 2 Timothy 1; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Redeemer

As for our Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts is His name--Jeremiah 1:34, Isaiah 47:4.

Jesus is Our Redeemer

Christ has redeemed us--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9; Titus 2:14; Luke 24:21.

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Creator

I am Jehovah who makes all things...alone, by Myself--Isaiah 44:24

Jesus is Our Creator

All things were made by Him--John 1:3 All were created by Him--Colossians 1:16

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Source of Life

He gives life to all--Acts 17:25 He is your life--Deuteronomy 3:20; 32:39

Jesus is Our Source of Life

He gives life to the world--John 6:33 I am the life--John 14:6; 11:25; 6:27-47

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Father

Jehovah our Father--Isaiah 63:16; 64:8

Jesus is Our Father

Father of Eternity--Isaiah 9:6

________________________________________

Jehovah is The I AM

His name is I AM--Exodus 3:14 Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He Is."

Jesus is The I AM

Before Abraham was, I AM--John 8:58 Who is, was, and is to come--Revelation 1:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Lord of Lords

Deuteronomy 10:17

Jesus is Lord of Lords

Revelation 17:14.

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Shepherd

Jehovah is my Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:11

Jesus is Our Shepherd

I am the Good Shepherd--John 10:11

________________________________________

Jehovah is The Almighty

The Almighty God--Genesis 17:1; 28:3; etc. Thine is the power--1 Chronicles 29:11; Matthew 6:18

Jesus is The Almighty

The Almighty--Revelation 1:8 The Mighty God--Isaiah 9:6 He has all power in heaven and earth--Matthew 28:18.

________________________________________

Jehovah is The Holy One

You alone are Holy--Isaiah 6:3 The Holy One--Isaiah 30:15; 54:5

Jesus is The Holy One

The Holy One--Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 3:14

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Light

Jehovah is my light--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:20

Jesus is Our Light

The Light of the world-- John 8:12; 1:9

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Rock

He alone is my Rock--Psalms 62:6; 18:2

Jesus is Our Rock

Christ is the Rock--1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our King

Jehovah is King forever--Ps. 10:16

Jesus is Our King

King of Kings--Rev. 17:14; Matt. 21:5

________________________________________

Jehovah is The First and Last

Isa. 43:10; 41:4, 48:12

Jesus is The First and Last

Rev. 22:13; 1:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Hope

Jehovah my Hope--Jer. 17:13, 17; 50:7

Jesus is Our Hope

Jesus Christ our Hope--1 Tim. 1:1

Answer me this question Mutzrein. When Did Jehovah come to dwell in the midst of His people?

Behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,' says Jehovah." (Zechariah 2:10).

Answer me this question Mutzrein. Can there be two Firsts and Two Lasts? that is linguistic suicide.

I really don't need to go on there is enough evidence here to convince anyone (except those that don't want to be convinced) as to what the Bible truly teaches about Jesus.

[Mutzrein]

Philippians 2:5 says does not say that that Jesus is God. Again, man with a preconceived notion is attempting to find scripture to support the doctrine. Where does it say that Jesus IS God? Does being in the form OF God make him God. No. I am made in the image of God. Does that make me God?

Mutzrein,

Here is the obvious problem you are overlooking with Phil 2:5. Notice that the passage states that Jesus did 4 things:

1. Made Himself of no reputation

2. Took on the form of a bondservant (as opposed to the previous form of God)

3. Came in the likness of man

4. Humbled Himself to the point that He became obedient to death.

All 4 of these things Jesus became, according to Paul. Meaning that He was previously NOT any of those things. All 4 of those things had to become true of Jesus in order for Jesus to be a sacrifice, particularly becoming obedient to death.

In verse 5 of Phillippians where it says that Jesus made himself of no reputation, the Greek says that Jesus emptied Himself. The following two verses explain what that emptying entailed. Jesus emptied Himself of Divine privilege. It was not an emptying of His Divine nature.

These things according to the grammatical structure were previously NOT true of Jesus at some point in history. Jesus at some point was in the form of God, was not in the likeness of man and was not obedient and thus not subject to death, prior to appearance on earth.

On the cross, when Jesus died, He died at the exact moment He chose to die. His life was not taken from Him. He excercized personal power over death when He gave up His Spirit at the exact moment the Passover Lamb was killed at the Temple.

I have noticted that you seem to confuse the issue of Deity with relationship. You and others seem to think that if Jesus is God, that He would not subject to the Will of the Father, and that because He is subject to His Father, that it makes Him less than God.

The Bible Col 1:16 teaches that Jesus created the universe (In the beginning GOD created...) So Jesus is God.

God the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8. So Jesus is God.

Jesus attributes Deity to Himself in Revelation by calling Himself "the first and the last," a phrase that can only be attributed to an eternal God, as it is a phrase that denotes eternal existence. So Jesus is God.

The term "Son of God" denotes equality with God. So Jesus is God.

The prophet Isaiah calls Jesus The Might God and Father (creator) of eternity. So Jesus is God.

Frankly, Mutzrein, the Deity of Jesus is provable, and folks like you are simply in a state of denial. You need to start believing the Bible.

Frankly I do believe the bible.

So why do I have a problem with the four points you are making? I don

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem I perceive is that when scripture speaks of Jesus coming from the Father (God) you see no alternative but to see him AS the Father (God).

Sorry, but you are wrong. Saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is the Father. I have never said that Jesus and the Father are one and the same. Once again, you are confusing the issues of Deity and relationship as your above quote once again, proves.

By the way, The verse from John that says that Jesus is the Word of God, says that the Word IS God.

As regards equality you say

[Mutzrein]

Mutzrein, you have made a lot of statements regarding wether or not we have gained the belief in the Deity of Christ from the Bible. But so far you have come up with not one convincing, provable, argument that it isn't. In fact it can be seen from your posts that you ignore the answers that we have given to your previous questions. I am reminded of the old proverb "There are none so blind as those that don't want to see". I have proved this statement again and again after thirty years of debating Christ with the cults. As Shiloh has already stated the truth of the Deity of Christ is quite provable from the Scriptures, but sadly you don't want to see it proved. If you want to hang on to your false beliefs, then that is fine, I accept that you have every right to believe what you want, but please don't say that the Bible teaches those beliefs because frankly you are up the creek without a paddle.

Check out the following Scriptures, these are just a few of the many that I could provide. Read them without your pre-conceived ideas about what YOU THINK the Bible teaches and see what conclusion you come to.

Jehovah is our Savior

"Besides Me there is no Savior"--Isaiah 43:3,10; 45:21,22; 60:16; 49:26

Jesus is Our Savior

"Savior of the World"--1 John 4; Luke 2:11; 2 Timothy 1; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Redeemer

As for our Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts is His name--Jeremiah 1:34, Isaiah 47:4.

Jesus is Our Redeemer

Christ has redeemed us--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9; Titus 2:14; Luke 24:21.

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Creator

I am Jehovah who makes all things...alone, by Myself--Isaiah 44:24

Jesus is Our Creator

All things were made by Him--John 1:3 All were created by Him--Colossians 1:16

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Source of Life

He gives life to all--Acts 17:25 He is your life--Deuteronomy 3:20; 32:39

Jesus is Our Source of Life

He gives life to the world--John 6:33 I am the life--John 14:6; 11:25; 6:27-47

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Father

Jehovah our Father--Isaiah 63:16; 64:8

Jesus is Our Father

Father of Eternity--Isaiah 9:6

________________________________________

Jehovah is The I AM

His name is I AM--Exodus 3:14 Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He Is."

Jesus is The I AM

Before Abraham was, I AM--John 8:58 Who is, was, and is to come--Revelation 1:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Lord of Lords

Deuteronomy 10:17

Jesus is Lord of Lords

Revelation 17:14.

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Shepherd

Jehovah is my Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:11

Jesus is Our Shepherd

I am the Good Shepherd--John 10:11

________________________________________

Jehovah is The Almighty

The Almighty God--Genesis 17:1; 28:3; etc. Thine is the power--1 Chronicles 29:11; Matthew 6:18

Jesus is The Almighty

The Almighty--Revelation 1:8 The Mighty God--Isaiah 9:6 He has all power in heaven and earth--Matthew 28:18.

________________________________________

Jehovah is The Holy One

You alone are Holy--Isaiah 6:3 The Holy One--Isaiah 30:15; 54:5

Jesus is The Holy One

The Holy One--Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 3:14

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Light

Jehovah is my light--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:20

Jesus is Our Light

The Light of the world-- John 8:12; 1:9

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Rock

He alone is my Rock--Psalms 62:6; 18:2

Jesus is Our Rock

Christ is the Rock--1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our King

Jehovah is King forever--Ps. 10:16

Jesus is Our King

King of Kings--Rev. 17:14; Matt. 21:5

________________________________________

Jehovah is The First and Last

Isa. 43:10; 41:4, 48:12

Jesus is The First and Last

Rev. 22:13; 1:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Hope

Jehovah my Hope--Jer. 17:13, 17; 50:7

Jesus is Our Hope

Jesus Christ our Hope--1 Tim. 1:1

Answer me this question Mutzrein. When Did Jehovah come to dwell in the midst of His people?

Behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,' says Jehovah." (Zechariah 2:10).

Answer me this question Mutzrein. Can there be two Firsts and Two Lasts? that is linguistic suicide.

I really don't need to go on there is enough evidence here to convince anyone (except those that don't want to be convinced) as to what the Bible truly teaches about Jesus.

Rebmilc. I entered this discussion on the basis of wanting to establish whether participants believed that salvation (and the righteousness I have in Christ) hinges on an intellectual assent to Jesus being God or whether it is the result of faith (which is the gift of God).

Plainly there are some who believe that unless I accept that Jesus is God I am not born of God's spirit.

So here is my dilemma. If I accepted something that denies the righteousness that I have in Christ then I would walk away from the walk of faith that I dwell in. And even though you believe something different I can never deny that you are made righteous by your faith (if indeed you walk by faith).

You see I haven't chosen not to see what you believe I am blind to. I see something else - and that something else has truly shown me the difference between an intellectual assent of who some believe Christ to be . . . and who I know Him to be since I abide in Him.

May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you?

I guess it's like God saying, 'Here is the creek - Get in.' I think to myself, 'Well I haven't got a paddle but God says so, so He will provide.'

You know I would rather be up the creek without a paddle than in the wrong creek.