Is Jesus Yahweh?

[Yahweh is salvation]

The problem I perceive is that when scripture speaks of Jesus coming from the Father (God) you see no alternative but to see him AS the Father (God).

Sorry, but you are wrong. Saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is the Father. I have never said that Jesus and the Father are one and the same. Once again, you are confusing the issues of Deity and relationship as your above quote once again, proves.

By the way, The verse from John that says that Jesus is the Word of God, says that the Word IS God.

As regards equality you say

[Guest shiloh357]

Rebmilc. I entered this discussion on the basis of wanting to establish whether participants believed that salvation (and the righteousness I have in Christ) hinges on an intellectual assent to Jesus being God or whether it is the result of faith (which is the gift of God).

Plainly there are some who believe that unless I accept that Jesus is God I am not born of God's spirit.

So here is my dilemma. If I accepted something that denies the righteousness that I have in Christ then I would walk away from the walk of faith that I dwell in. And even though you believe something different I can never deny that you are made righteous by your faith (if indeed you walk by faith).

You see I haven't chosen not to see what you believe I am blind to. I see something else - and that something else has truly shown me the difference between an intellectual assent of who some believe Christ to be . . . and who I know Him to be since I abide in Him.

May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you?

I guess it's like God saying, 'Here is the creek - Get in.' I think to myself, 'Well I haven't got a paddle but God says so, so He will provide.'

You know I would rather be up the creek without a paddle than in the wrong creek.

If you notice, Mutzrein, the weakness in your position is that you rest entirely on emotion. You cannot develop a biblical defense for your position. Your position relies ignoring plain statements in the Bible. You simply ignore direct questions put to you and so far, you have not responded to the testimonies of both Jesus and God the Father where both testify that Jesus is God.

The Deity of Jesus is not a periphreal, nonessential issue like the rapture or footwashing or something of that nature. It is not some ambiguous doctrine about which the Bible is not clear.

There are simply some doctrines that cannot be compromised that cannot be put to the side in the name of "unity" or "fellowship." The Deity of Christ is a biblical doctrine that is taught from beginning to the end of the Bible, and your rejection of it is simply a matter of both rebellion and intellectual suicide.

The Deity of Jesus is what sets Christianity apart from religions like Buddhism and Islam. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are predicated on His Deity, and without the Deity of Jesus, we have no guarantee that Jesus lived a sinless life.

The Bible teaches that Jesus became flesh. That means that prior to his birth, He was something else. It means that Jesus consciously decided to take on human flesh. It was an act of His Will which means that Jesus pre-existed His earthly ministry,which speaks to His Deity. Jesus was not made flesh. He became flesh on His own.

[Yahweh is salvation]

Rebmilc. I entered this discussion on the basis of wanting to establish whether participants believed that salvation (and the righteousness I have in Christ) hinges on an intellectual assent to Jesus being God or whether it is the result of faith (which is the gift of God).

Plainly there are some who believe that unless I accept that Jesus is God I am not born of God's spirit.

So here is my dilemma. If I accepted something that denies the righteousness that I have in Christ then I would walk away from the walk of faith that I dwell in. And even though you believe something different I can never deny that you are made righteous by your faith (if indeed you walk by faith).

You see I haven't chosen not to see what you believe I am blind to. I see something else - and that something else has truly shown me the difference between an intellectual assent of who some believe Christ to be . . . and who I know Him to be since I abide in Him.

May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you?

I guess it's like God saying, 'Here is the creek - Get in.' I think to myself, 'Well I haven't got a paddle but God says so, so He will provide.'

You know I would rather be up the creek without a paddle than in the wrong creek.

If you notice, Mutzrein, the weakness in your position is that you rest entirely on emotion. You cannot develop a biblical defense for your position. Your position relies ignoring plain statements in the Bible. You simply ignore direct questions put to you and so far, you have not responded to the testimonies of both Jesus and God the Father where both testify that Jesus is God.

The Deity of Jesus is not a periphreal, nonessential issue like the rapture or footwashing or something of that nature. It is not some ambiguous doctrine about which the Bible is not clear.

There are simply some doctrines that cannot be compromised that cannot be put to the side in the name of "unity" or "fellowship." The Deity of Christ is a biblical doctrine that is taught from beginning to the end of the Bible, and your rejection of it is simply a matter of both rebellion and intellectual suicide.

The Deity of Jesus is what sets Christianity apart from religions like Buddhism and Islam. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are predicated on His Deity, and without the Deity of Jesus, we have no guarantee that Jesus lived a sinless life.

The Bible teaches that Jesus became flesh. That means that prior to his birth, He was something else. It means that Jesus consciously decided to take on human flesh. It was an act of His Will which means that Jesus pre-existed His earthly ministry,which speaks to His Deity. Jesus was not made flesh. He became flesh on His own.

My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands, and I am one with the Father.( John 10.27-30 )

After that they wanted to stone him for claiming that he is God, and he was certanly not saying that. Only reason that they wanted to stone him was because they missunderstud him, the same thing that you are doing now(missunderstanding).

God bless you.

[Yahweh is salvation]

Rebmilc. I entered this discussion on the basis of wanting to establish whether participants believed that salvation (and the righteousness I have in Christ) hinges on an intellectual assent to Jesus being God or whether it is the result of faith (which is the gift of God).

Plainly there are some who believe that unless I accept that Jesus is God I am not born of God's spirit.

So here is my dilemma. If I accepted something that denies the righteousness that I have in Christ then I would walk away from the walk of faith that I dwell in. And even though you believe something different I can never deny that you are made righteous by your faith (if indeed you walk by faith).

You see I haven't chosen not to see what you believe I am blind to. I see something else - and that something else has truly shown me the difference between an intellectual assent of who some believe Christ to be . . . and who I know Him to be since I abide in Him.

May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you?

I guess it's like God saying, 'Here is the creek - Get in.' I think to myself, 'Well I haven't got a paddle but God says so, so He will provide.'

You know I would rather be up the creek without a paddle than in the wrong creek.

If you notice, Mutzrein, the weakness in your position is that you rest entirely on emotion. You cannot develop a biblical defense for your position. Your position relies ignoring plain statements in the Bible. You simply ignore direct questions put to you and so far, you have not responded to the testimonies of both Jesus and God the Father where both testify that Jesus is God.

The Deity of Jesus is not a periphreal, nonessential issue like the rapture or footwashing or something of that nature. It is not some ambiguous doctrine about which the Bible is not clear.

There are simply some doctrines that cannot be compromised that cannot be put to the side in the name of "unity" or "fellowship." The Deity of Christ is a biblical doctrine that is taught from beginning to the end of the Bible, and your rejection of it is simply a matter of both rebellion and intellectual suicide.

The Deity of Jesus is what sets Christianity apart from religions like Buddhism and Islam. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are predicated on His Deity, and without the Deity of Jesus, we have no guarantee that Jesus lived a sinless life.

The Bible teaches that Jesus became flesh. That means that prior to his birth, He was something else. It means that Jesus consciously decided to take on human flesh. It was an act of His Will which means that Jesus pre-existed His earthly ministry,which speaks to His Deity. Jesus was not made flesh. He became flesh on His own.

Yes he was something else. He was always the son of God, thats why he said that he was before all others(people).

God bless you.

[Yahweh is salvation]

Mutzrein, you have made a lot of statements regarding wether or not we have gained the belief in the Deity of Christ from the Bible. But so far you have come up with not one convincing, provable, argument that it isn't. In fact it can be seen from your posts that you ignore the answers that we have given to your previous questions. I am reminded of the old proverb "There are none so blind as those that don't want to see". I have proved this statement again and again after thirty years of debating Christ with the cults. As Shiloh has already stated the truth of the Deity of Christ is quite provable from the Scriptures, but sadly you don't want to see it proved. If you want to hang on to your false beliefs, then that is fine, I accept that you have every right to believe what you want, but please don't say that the Bible teaches those beliefs because frankly you are up the creek without a paddle.

Check out the following Scriptures, these are just a few of the many that I could provide. Read them without your pre-conceived ideas about what YOU THINK the Bible teaches and see what conclusion you come to.

Jehovah is our Savior

"Besides Me there is no Savior"--Isaiah 43:3,10; 45:21,22; 60:16; 49:26

Jesus is Our Savior

"Savior of the World"--1 John 4; Luke 2:11; 2 Timothy 1; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Redeemer

As for our Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts is His name--Jeremiah 1:34, Isaiah 47:4.

Jesus is Our Redeemer

Christ has redeemed us--Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9; Titus 2:14; Luke 24:21.

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Creator

I am Jehovah who makes all things...alone, by Myself--Isaiah 44:24

Jesus is Our Creator

All things were made by Him--John 1:3 All were created by Him--Colossians 1:16

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Source of Life

He gives life to all--Acts 17:25 He is your life--Deuteronomy 3:20; 32:39

Jesus is Our Source of Life

He gives life to the world--John 6:33 I am the life--John 14:6; 11:25; 6:27-47

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Father

Jehovah our Father--Isaiah 63:16; 64:8

Jesus is Our Father

Father of Eternity--Isaiah 9:6

________________________________________

Jehovah is The I AM

His name is I AM--Exodus 3:14 Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He Is."

Jesus is The I AM

Before Abraham was, I AM--John 8:58 Who is, was, and is to come--Revelation 1:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Lord of Lords

Deuteronomy 10:17

Jesus is Lord of Lords

Revelation 17:14.

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Shepherd

Jehovah is my Shepherd--Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:11

Jesus is Our Shepherd

I am the Good Shepherd--John 10:11

________________________________________

Jehovah is The Almighty

The Almighty God--Genesis 17:1; 28:3; etc. Thine is the power--1 Chronicles 29:11; Matthew 6:18

Jesus is The Almighty

The Almighty--Revelation 1:8 The Mighty God--Isaiah 9:6 He has all power in heaven and earth--Matthew 28:18.

________________________________________

Jehovah is The Holy One

You alone are Holy--Isaiah 6:3 The Holy One--Isaiah 30:15; 54:5

Jesus is The Holy One

The Holy One--Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 3:14

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Light

Jehovah is my light--Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:20

Jesus is Our Light

The Light of the world-- John 8:12; 1:9

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Rock

He alone is my Rock--Psalms 62:6; 18:2

Jesus is Our Rock

Christ is the Rock--1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our King

Jehovah is King forever--Ps. 10:16

Jesus is Our King

King of Kings--Rev. 17:14; Matt. 21:5

________________________________________

Jehovah is The First and Last

Isa. 43:10; 41:4, 48:12

Jesus is The First and Last

Rev. 22:13; 1:8

________________________________________

Jehovah is Our Hope

Jehovah my Hope--Jer. 17:13, 17; 50:7

Jesus is Our Hope

Jesus Christ our Hope--1 Tim. 1:1

Answer me this question Mutzrein. When Did Jehovah come to dwell in the midst of His people?

Behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,' says Jehovah." (Zechariah 2:10).

Answer me this question Mutzrein. Can there be two Firsts and Two Lasts? that is linguistic suicide.

I really don't need to go on there is enough evidence here to convince anyone (except those that don't want to be convinced) as to what the Bible truly teaches about Jesus.

Rebmilc. I entered this discussion on the basis of wanting to establish whether participants believed that salvation (and the righteousness I have in Christ) hinges on an intellectual assent to Jesus being God or whether it is the result of faith (which is the gift of God).

Plainly there are some who believe that unless I accept that Jesus is God I am not born of God's spirit.

So here is my dilemma. If I accepted something that denies the righteousness that I have in Christ then I would walk away from the walk of faith that I dwell in. And even though you believe something different I can never deny that you are made righteous by your faith (if indeed you walk by faith).

You see I haven't chosen not to see what you believe I am blind to. I see something else - and that something else has truly shown me the difference between an intellectual assent of who some believe Christ to be . . . and who I know Him to be since I abide in Him.

May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you?

I guess it's like God saying, 'Here is the creek - Get in.' I think to myself, 'Well I haven't got a paddle but God says so, so He will provide.'

You know I would rather be up the creek without a paddle than in the wrong creek.

I like that last statement Mutzrein .

God bless you.

[WayneB]

May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you?

First I would make sure the "glimpse" you speak of is from God and not the Enemy...

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." 2 Corinthians 11:14,15

So how do we make sure we're in the "right creek"? We shine the LIGHT of God's Word and expose the lies of the Enemy. We are responsible to be like the Bereans...

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11

It isn't an issue of being right in man's eyes or having all the answers. The issue is very simple. There are certain basic truths that are undeniable regardless of how one may try and the claim of Jesus to be God is clear and among those basic truths.

"For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

[Mutzrein]

If you notice, Mutzrein, the weakness in your position is that you rest entirely on emotion. You cannot develop a biblical defense for your position. Your position relies ignoring plain statements in the Bible. You simply ignore direct questions put to you and so far, you have not responded to the testimonies of both Jesus and God the Father where both testify that Jesus is God.

The Deity of Jesus is not a periphreal, nonessential issue like the rapture or footwashing or something of that nature. It is not some ambiguous doctrine about which the Bible is not clear.

There are simply some doctrines that cannot be compromised that cannot be put to the side in the name of "unity" or "fellowship." The Deity of Christ is a biblical doctrine that is taught from beginning to the end of the Bible, and your rejection of it is simply a matter of both rebellion and intellectual suicide.

The Deity of Jesus is what sets Christianity apart from religions like Buddhism and Islam. Jesus' death, burial and resurrection are predicated on His Deity, and without the Deity of Jesus, we have no guarantee that Jesus lived a sinless life.

The Bible teaches that Jesus became flesh. That means that prior to his birth, He was something else. It means that Jesus consciously decided to take on human flesh. It was an act of His Will which means that Jesus pre-existed His earthly ministry,which speaks to His Deity. Jesus was not made flesh. He became flesh on His own.

My position rests on emotion? How can my relationship with Christ rest on emotion? I rest on the most solid immovable foundation in the universe. You see my position is not based on the vagaries of man

[Mutzrein]

May I ask you something. If God gave you a glimpse of something - something that perhaps answered a question which you had long pondered but couldn't reconcile intellectually, would you deny the validity just because you didn't understand it. Does everything you stand on - your knowledge of God and His Christ have to able to be comprehended by the intellect to be accepted? Would you have to have all the answers to ALL the questions before you accept what God would show you or require of you?

First I would make sure the "glimpse" you speak of is from God and not the Enemy...

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." 2 Corinthians 11:14,15

So how do we make sure we're in the "right creek"? We shine the LIGHT of God's Word and expose the lies of the Enemy. We are responsible to be like the Bereans...

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11

It isn't an issue of being right in man's eyes or having all the answers. The issue is very simple. There are certain basic truths that are undeniable regardless of how one may try and the claim of Jesus to be God is clear and among those basic truths.

"For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21

Thankyou Wayne. However, I am not quite sure what you are saying. Are you saying that I am a servant of unrighteousness?

[Guest shiloh357]

My position rests on emotion? How can my relationship with Christ rest on emotion?

What I am saying is that your position does not rest on any teaching from the Bible. You cannot develop your position from a systematic teaching fromthe Scripture. So far, you have not offered anything that amounts to a solid, biblical defense of your belief that Jesus is not and cannot be God. The lack of actual biblical authority is what is so glaringly obvious in your posts. You cannot actually defend what you believe from the Bible. Rather, what I have noticed is that you have to ignore the Bible, which is why when I bring up specific passages from the Bible, you don't address them. When I bring up the testimonies of Jesus and God the Father, you change the subject or just find another way to avoid having to address those passages.

I rest on the most solid immovable foundation in the universe. You see my position is not based on the vagaries of man

[Guest shiloh357]

My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands, and I am one with the Father.( John 10.27-30 )

After that they wanted to stone him for claiming that he is God, and he was certanly not saying that. Only reason that they wanted to stone him was because they missunderstud him, the same thing that you are doing now(missunderstanding).

No, they were not misunderstanding them, and Jesus did say they were misunderstanding them. Jesus did not say they were wrong. If they were, Jesus missed an excellent opportunity to clarify Himself, but He didn't.

You see, their understanding of Jesus proves what I said earlier about the term "Son of God." You are not willing to accpet it, but this is one part of the Hebrew language and Hebrew thought about which you are not very skilled. By Jesus delcaring Himself to be the "Son of God." They understood EXACTLY what He meant. I will repost to you what posted Mutzrein, earlier: