Naming the Name of Christ

[Scarletprayers]

Shalom Shiloh,

I agree with you, let me get that said first.

But I truly do not understand how you can say that someone wo does not KNOW their lifestyle is a sin, can repent of it?

I ministered to a homosexual nurse that I worked with. He was a Catholic and I shared the Gospel with him over and over and we went over the Scriptures about homosexuality being a sin and he just did not see it. You see, he had been indoctrinated by his homosexual priest that these verses were mistranslated and misunderstood by the homophobic Christians and that as long as he was in a monogamous homosexual relationship, he was not practicing sin.

So, some people have blinders on when it comes to their sin and they give their heart to Jesus and He reveals these things to them.

This is what I'm referring to.

Also, there were PLENTY of things in my life that I did not know were sin when I got saved. And as I walked closer with Jesus and studied the Bible and went to church, I was made aware that certain things were sin and I repented of them and stopped doing them. But, it didn't happen on the day I was saved, it has been happening for 30 years.

See what I mean? I'm not talking about willful knowledgeable refusal to give up sin, I'm talking about areas that we are in denial about until the Holy Spirit gets ahold of us and convicts us of it.

Vickilynn, I know this is exactly what Fiosh was talking about, because we've discussed it so many times before! The Holy Spirit leads you to things and with some its a gentle nudging into the truth, and with others its the big bang. I have started feeling the conviction about certain things in my life that up until now, never even crossed my mind were a trap and hindrance for my walk!

[Guest shiloh357]

But I truly do not understand how you can say that someone wo does not KNOW their lifestyle is a sin, can repent of it?

I don't believe I ever said that.

What I am addressing is Fiosh's argument that a person living in a homosexual lifestyle can be and should be accepted as a faithful and true follower of Christ simply because they claim to love Christ. If we accept them as true follower of Christ than can we object to their service in the Body of Christ. I guess I am looking at the inevitable path that Fiosh's position would lead to.

Let me put it this way... Would any of us want a practising homosexual to lead a Sunday School class or teach in Vacation Bible School? My point is that we cannot accept them as Christians on the one hand and deny them the privileges and responsibilities of membership in the body of Christ on the other.

To me this is not the same thing as becoming a Christian and later being convicted about some the clothes I wear, or music I listen to, or perhaps being convicted about a flaw in my character. Sanctification is an immediate spiritual condition and as well as ongoing, life-long process of deliverance.

I realize that it takes some people longer to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and as I clearly stated in my last post before this one, repentance is work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the sinner. I understand that a person cannot repent of what they do not know is sinful. What I am saying is that repentance precedes salvation and we cannot accept someone as member of the Body of Christ that has not come to the place of repentance. If they have no remorse over their sin and no desire to be free from the bondage of sin, then they cannot turn to Christ. Fiosh's assertion that homosexuals can still turn to Christ and love Christ without actually knowing or accepting that homosexuality is a sin is simply not true because turning to Christ is predicated upon repentance and turning away from sin.

[patricia1]

Shalom Shiloh,

I agree with you, let me get that said first.

But I truly do not understand how you can say that someone wo does not KNOW their lifestyle is a sin, can repent of it?

I ministered to a homosexual nurse that I worked with. He was a Catholic and I shared the Gospel with him over and over and we went over the Scriptures about homosexuality being a sin and he just did not see it. You see, he had been indoctrinated by his homosexual priest that these verses were mistranslated and misunderstood by the homophobic Christians and that as long as he was in a monogamous homosexual relationship, he was not practicing sin.

So, some people have blinders on when it comes to their sin and they give their heart to Jesus and He reveals these things to them.

This is what I'm referring to.

Also, there were PLENTY of things in my life that I did not know were sin when I got saved. And as I walked closer with Jesus and studied the Bible and went to church, I was made aware that certain things were sin and I repented of them and stopped doing them. But, it didn't happen on the day I was saved, it has been happening for 30 years.

See what I mean? I'm not talking about willful knowledgeable refusal to give up sin, I'm talking about areas that we are in denial about until the Holy Spirit gets ahold of us and convicts us of it.

Vickilynn, I know this is exactly what Fiosh was talking about, because we've discussed it so many times before! The Holy Spirit leads you to things and with some its a gentle nudging into the truth, and with others its the big bang. I have started feeling the conviction about certain things in my life that up until now, never even crossed my mind were a trap and hindrance for my walk!

and amen ladies. I can easily see how wars can break out

[Guest shiloh357]

Fiosh is promoting a very dangerous idea that is not biblical. She is manipulating the issue through a purely emotional tactic. According to her, if we don't allow that practising homosexuals can be just as Christian as we are, then we are not being compassionate. There is a line that has to be drawn as to what true biblical Christianity is, and there is no way the homosexual lifestyle can peacefully coexist with a biblical expression of faith in Christ.

Her persepective is actually the most uncompassionate. It leaves people in their sin. It does not confront them on their need for delieverance and salvation. Her position is that we should just let them in and when God wants to convict them, then fine. In the meantime, we should accept them as full fledged members of the body of Christ, according to Fiosh's argument.

Yet Fiosh claims that she is against those who ordain homosexuals as church leaders and bishops. But why should she be opposed? If a person can be gay and be just as Christian as you and I, then why should they be denied any aspect of Church leadership? On that point, her position is internally inconsistent. It is okay for them to be recognized as full Christians in spite of being a practising homosexual, but they are deined the full privileges of a Christian on the grounds they are a practising homosexual. Such incsonsistency demonstrates the fallacoius and unChristian platform upon which her argument rests.

I think it is conspicuous and worth noting that Fiosh cannot present a scriptural defense. She has to rely on emotional manipulation and guilt trips to make people appear cruel and uncaring to make her point.

[Scarletprayers]

"Fiosh is promoting a very dangerous idea that is not biblical. She is manipulating the issue through a purely emotional tactic. According to her, if we don't allow that practising homosexuals can be just as Christian as we are, then we are not being compassionate. There is a line that has to be drawn as to what true biblical Christianity is, and there is no way the homosexual lifestyle can peacefully coexist with a biblical expression of faith in Christ."

No Shiloh, I don't think thats what she is doing at all. I understand what she's trying to say and I don't think has come across yet in any of these "written" post. Then you add to it the the fact that this is a man debating from the way men see things (usually very black & white, emotions not involved for the most part) and the way women usually approach a subject (usually black, white & gray) and emotions usually ARE involved. I think its just a misunderstanding of what each person is trying to express.

I certainly don't want to argue the point, but, I think if you are a "practicing" homosexual you are living in sin! But, if you have been brought up all your live to believe (having been taught by your parents, and society) that you CAN be a homosexual and a Christian, its just like any other sin a believer comes into the light with, the Holy Spirit HAS to convict you that it is wrong. I don't think you should be allowed to preach, or be a teacher, and from the discussion Fiosh and I have had about this issue, neither does she. But, this fictional person can believe with all their heart that they are a Christian, live by the golden rule and pray and feel the Lords presence trying to change them, and still not be convicted yet by the Lord. The Lord moves in His own way at His own time, not yours or mine. That is what she has been trying to say, (Fiosh, at least that's always what I've gotten from our conversation, please excuse me for putting words in your mouth if I am wrong)

I kinda feel like the teenager that has two friends that don't like each other...............monkey in the middle!

[Guest shiloh357]

"Fiosh is promoting a very dangerous idea that is not biblical. She is manipulating the issue through a purely emotional tactic. According to her, if we don't allow that practising homosexuals can be just as Christian as we are, then we are not being compassionate. There is a line that has to be drawn as to what true biblical Christianity is, and there is no way the homosexual lifestyle can peacefully coexist with a biblical expression of faith in Christ."

No Shiloh, I don't think thats what she is doing at all. I understand what she's trying to say and I don't think has come across yet in any of these "written" post. Then you add to it the the fact that this is a man debating from the way men see things (usually very black & white, emotions not involved for the most part) and the way women usually approach a subject (usually black, white & gray) and emotions usually ARE involved. I think its just a misunderstanding of what each person is trying to express.

I certainly don't want to argue the point, but, I think if you are a "practicing" homosexual you are living in sin! But, if you have been brought up all your live to believe (having been taught by your parents, and society) that you CAN be a homosexual and a Christian, its just like any other sin a believer comes into the light with, the Holy Spirit HAS to convict you that it is wrong. I don't think you should be allowed to preach, or be a teacher, and from the discussion Fiosh and I have had about this issue, neither does she. But, this fictional person can believe with all their heart that they are a Christian, live by the golden rule and pray and feel the Lords presence trying to change them, and still not be convicted yet by the Lord. The Lord moves in His own way at His own time, not yours or mine. That is what she has been trying to say, (Fiosh, at least that's always what I've gotten from our conversation, please excuse me for putting words in your mouth if I am wrong)

I kinda feel like the teenager that has two friends that don't like each other...............monkey in the middle!

Once again, I note that this position is purely an emotional one. I am not opposed to emotions being involved. The problem is that it is not a biblical argument.

I will however put this scenario to you. Let's say that we have a homoexual named John. John is misled by others into believing that homosexuality is not a sin, and he was raised this way and this view of his has not been challenged. John is accpeted into YOUR church as a Christian in spite of being a homosexual. He is accepted a full brother in Christ.

Now, John wants to lead a 6th grade boy's Sunday School Class. On what grounds do you deny John this right? You are going to tell him that it is because he is gay? The Church has already reinforced his belief that he is not sinning by accepting him as a full brother in Christ, now you are going to send him a conflicting message that because homosexuality is a sin, he cannot serve and participate in the same things as other Christians. Do you not see the internal inconsistency here?

[Scarletprayers]

No, I wouldn't allow him to teach a class, as I said in my previous post. There is a difference (to me) to allowing a brother to attend worship and treating him as a brother, but still saying that some of the things in his life are not in line with the teachings of Christ. Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I don't see it that way.

Name one person in church thats not a sinner in some way or another? One of my sins that I struggle with, is my temper, I get mad and shoot from the hip after disengaging my brain. I don't care (at that time) if I hurt someones feelings, as a matter of fact, I WANT to hurt their feelings, and to make matters worse, if I know you well enough to know your emotional buttons, I USE them, gleefully. I'm sorry later, (yes I'm aware that THAT is the difference between me and the practicing homosexual) appalled and feel shamed that I would do that, but I still do it. I don't stop myself before it gets to that point, so I am actually and with full malice aforethought deliberately sinning. Its one of the reasons I really do try to stay out of the "heavy" threads around here, I know me. The Lord has been working on me about this, for years, and I am so much better about it than I used to be but, I still do it occasionally. Should I be allowed to teach a class of girls or young ladies? My sin is known, blatant and totally out of line for a practicing Christian?

[st. Worm]

I don't mean to complicate this imaginary scenario but it seems necessary. How can a church allow a full communing member that apparently is a practicing homosexual (I assume practicing if he/she does not believe its a sin) to continue in their practice without consequences? Any church should begin the process of hopefully bringing the individual to repentance by taking the proper steps involving church discipline including having the church leadership meet with him and show him scripturally why homosexuality is a sin. Then if that does not work taking additional steps such as barring him from communion and finally excommunicating him if necessary. You can't just say we won't let him teach a class and let it go at that. Any church has a responsibility both to its members and to the individual in matters like this. If a member is an unrepentant thief or adulterer the same principles would apply.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

Hold on a sec.... y'all are going down a rabbit trail.

No one was talking about serving in the ministry as a practicing homosexual. Please, don't defend arguments not in play!

We are discussing the SIMPLE basic question of salvation and repentance. At least I am. I want to get this clear before we move on to serving in ministry.

Shiloh said this:

"What I am saying is that repentance precedes salvation and we cannot accept someone as member of the Body of Christ that has not come to the place of repentance."

I do not agree that is a Biblical statement. In fact, ALL of us were accepted into the Body of Messiah with areas in our lives still unrepented of. Because we did not know they were sins. We are not saved once EVERY sin is repented of. We are saved when we repent of our known sins, acknowledge we need a Savior to forgive those sins ans trust in Jesus as that Savior. As we walk with and grow in Him, the Holy Spirit reveals to us more of our sins and we continually repent and ask forgiveness.

Look at Romans 5:

7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person

[Vickilynn]

I will however put this scenario to you. Let's say that we have a homoexual named John. John is misled by others into believing that homosexuality is not a sin, and he was raised this way and this view of his has not been challenged. John is accpeted into YOUR church as a Christian in spite of being a homosexual. He is accepted a full brother in Christ.

Shalom Shiloh,

Let's get back to point 1 - Salvation.

Yes, John is a Christian IF he has repented of his known sins, believed on Jesus as the Son of G-d, asked Jesus for forgiveness and to be His Savior.

Romans 10:

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

As a Born-again Christian, he already IS in the Body of Messiah as brother in the faith. The church is simply the born-again Believers in Jesus.

OK, so he is a Christian and born-again into the Body of Messiah, the Church.

Now, John wants to lead a 6th grade boy's Sunday School Class. On what grounds do you deny John this right? You are going to tell him that it is because he is gay? The Church has already reinforced his belief that he is not sinning by accepting him as a full brother in Christ, now you are going to send him a conflicting message that because homosexuality is a sin, he cannot serve and participate in the same things as other Christians. Do you not see the internal inconsistency here?

No, it's not inconsistent at all Shiloh. The church's job is to disciple this new brother and teach him the Word of G-d and show him what G-d says about the sin of homosexuality. The church is to love him enough to teach him the truth. We are to open our arms to him and show him his sin. We are to train the disciples in G-d's Word. We are not sending him any messages other than G-d's Word and teaching him that he is committing sin. But that does not negate the fact that he is a brother in Messiah and a member of His Body. (see above) We should TRAIN the disciples.

Titus 2

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great) God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

And the church SHOULD NOT put John in as a member, or in any position within the church as long as he is living in and practicing homosexuality.

These are separate issues, (salvation, church membership, church service) and so there is no inconsistency.