Naming the Name of Christ

[patricia1]

I will however put this scenario to you. Let's say that we have a homoexual named John. John is misled by others into believing that homosexuality is not a sin, and he was raised this way and this view of his has not been challenged. John is accpeted into YOUR church as a Christian in spite of being a homosexual. He is accepted a full brother in Christ.

Shalom Shiloh,

Let's get back to point 1 - Salvation.

Yes, John is a Christian IF he has repented of his known sins, believed on Jesus as the Son of G-d, asked Jesus for forgiveness and to be His Savior.

Romans 10:

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

As a Born-again Christian, he already IS in the Body of Messiah as brother in the faith. The church is simply the born-again Believers in Jesus.

OK, so he is a Christian and born-again into the Body of Messiah, the Church.

Now, John wants to lead a 6th grade boy's Sunday School Class. On what grounds do you deny John this right? You are going to tell him that it is because he is gay? The Church has already reinforced his belief that he is not sinning by accepting him as a full brother in Christ, now you are going to send him a conflicting message that because homosexuality is a sin, he cannot serve and participate in the same things as other Christians. Do you not see the internal inconsistency here?

No, it's not inconsistent at all Shiloh. The church's job is to disciple this new brother and teach him the Word of G-d and show him what G-d says about the sin of homosexuality. The church is to love him enough to teach him the truth. We are to open our arms to him and show him his sin. We are to train the disciples in G-d's Word. We are not sending him any messages other than G-d's Word and teaching him that he is committing sin. But that does not negate the fact that he is a brother in Messiah and a member of His Body. (see above) We should TRAIN the disciples.

Titus 2

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great) God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

And the church SHOULD NOT put John in as a member, or in any position within the church as long as he is living in and practicing homosexuality.

These are separate issues, (salvation, church membership, church service) and so there is no inconsistency.

The practice of homosexuality and all other immoralities is not the Gospel Of God. If we are to hate sin that settles it! God remains to love the sinner. God says to come and let us reason together. If after salvatiion the sin is still being openly practiced and it is not dealt with the way the bible states it should be, that church is in trouble.

I could eat a whole package of oreos or chocolate chip cookies in one sitting, pleasurly dunking them into tea or milk. I weighed 97 pounds. My sin of gluttony did not show. God saw it and dealt with me...I also needed to tell someone to let them know. Had to be accountable. The flesh was strong and yet Jesus won. It took time. But God was working on me. I was and still am under construction. My dying uncle who was Bisexual, I give a testimony somwhere..told me that homosexuality was not a lifestyle but a choice unless something chemically wrong is happening. When he met Jesus his conviction was so immediate and strong he was worried about other friends and family members It is wrong in spite of what anybody says. I do not know anyone who came to know Jesus and continued in homosexuality except what is advertised. And it is only advertised for that persons betterment. I do believe immediate deliverance is possible and I also believe it could be a slower process. Only God can judge a mannnnnns heart. But scripture is what is given to us to measure sin, fruit and so on. If we all thought a little sin will not heart the church we ar wrong. we will all have churches turned into synogouges of satan

[Guest shiloh357]

No, I wouldn't allow him to teach a class, as I said in my previous post. There is a difference (to me) to allowing a brother to attend worship and treating him as a brother, but still saying that some of the things in his life are not in line with the teachings of Christ. Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I don't see it that way.

Allowing someone to attend Church and accepting them as full brother/sister in Christ while they continue to practice homosexuality are two different things. If there was ANY place they need to be it would be in Church so that they can hear the gospel. Of course, we should treat them kindly and pray for them and minister to them in grace and love. That goes without saying.

One thing that needs to be pointed out is for one to turn to Christ, they MUST unequivocally turn from sin. You cannot from anywhere in the Bible, build a scriptural case for someone to continue living in aberrant sin while professing Christ. That is the weakness of Fiosh's position. It is the utter lack of any Scriptural foundation. You cannot use emotion to make up for that.

Another point. It doesn't make any difference at all if they were misled, mistaught by others in the past that their lifestyle is not a sin. That does not give them an excuse. The Bible defines homosexuality as one of the most abhorent sins one can commit in the eyes God. It is right up there with idolatry, witchcraft, Necromancy, etc. It is punishable by immediate death. The Bible is explicit about how God feels, and He does not add any qualifers about it being done in ignorance. In no place in Scripture does there exist a passage that supports any notion that a person can be a faithful follower of Christ and still live in aberrant sin, whether in ignorance or otherwise.

I again note the inconsistency in accepting someone as a full brother in Christ, but not allowing them fully participate as one. It sends the wrong message.

Name one person in church thats not a sinner in some way or another?

My contention is that there is a difference between a Christian who sins, who struggles with flaws in their personality, who struggles with impure thoughts, who struggles with the kind of entertainment they enjoy, and someone who lives in aberrant sin and sees absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Yes, there is a process of sanctification, and the more and more we walk in the light of the word, the more and more the Word of God shines like a spotlight on the parts of our lives that are not fully surrendered, and parts where our walk is not reflecting Christ. We are always being made aware of things we need to change, give up, and get our of our lives. That is the ongoing process of sanctification.

Having said that, there is NO comparison between those things and the lifestyle of homosexuality. There is no way I would tell a woman that she can receive Christ today and maybe later on give up prostitution. There is no way I would tell someone who is living adultery that they can get saved and maybe later when God finally gets around to convicting them that adulerty is wrong they can give it up.

Jesus taught that He came to call sinners to repentance. The Bibles says that godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation. A sinner can NEVER become a Christian until the he/she first repents and turns from the sin in his life at that time. Yes there are other things the Lord will show him later, but a thief must repent of and give up stealing, an adulterer must repent of and give up adultery and fornication, a liar must repent and give up lying, a prostitute must repent and turn away from her sin. One must turn from sin in order to turn to Christ. Jesus and sin cannot exist in the same heart.

The Lord has been working on me about this, for years, and I am so much better about it than I used to be but, I still do it occasionally. Should I be allowed to teach a class of girls or young ladies? My sin is known, blatant and totally out of line for a practicing Christian?

The difference is that you struggle to become more like Christ. You recognize the sin and are trying change, and are letting the Lord deliever you.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shalom Shiloh,

Let's get back to point 1 - Salvation.

Yes, John is a Christian IF he has repented of his known sins, believed on Jesus as the Son of G-d, asked Jesus for forgiveness and to be His Savior.

QUOTE

Romans 10:

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

As a Born-again Christian, he already IS in the Body of Messiah as brother in the faith. The church is simply the born-again Believers in Jesus.

OK, so he is a Christian and born-again into the Body of Messiah, the Church.

Vickilynn, that would be fine, except that in my scenario John is not repentant. He has not repented of homosexuality, but continues to live in it. He is contuing to have intercourse with other men because his church told him that he could still be a Christian while enagaging in sin with other men. No repentance is at all involved in my scenario.

No, it's not inconsistent at all Shiloh. The church's job is to disciple this new brother and teach him the Word of G-d and show him what G-d says about the sin of homosexuality. The church is to love him enough to teach him the truth. We are to open our arms to him and show him his sin. We are to train the disciples in G-d's Word. We are not sending him any messages other than G-d's Word and teaching him that he is committing sin. But that does not negate the fact that he is a brother in Messiah and a member of His Body. (see above) We should TRAIN the disciples.

I guess the inconsistency I see is in accepting him as a full believer a bonefide Christian and true follower of Christ in spite of his continuance in the homosexual lifestyle, while at the same time saying that he cannot operate as full believer in the body of Christ by teaching or taking on leadership projects.

I mean, looking at it from John's perspective, he would ask, "If my homosexuality does not bar me from being a Christian, why should it be reason enough to bar me from participating as a full member of the body of Christ just like other Christians?" It is inconsistent to declare him a full Christian while barring from the rights and privileges other Christians have in the body.

My belief is that he should NEVER have been told that he could be both a Christian and a practising homosexual in the first place. Anyone who would teach such a thing is not teaching the truth. No one should be allowed to believe they are a Christian if they have not come to a place of repentance. If Jesus came to call all men to repentance, then we must do the same. There is no salvation without repentance first.

[Scarletprayers]

Shiloh, I hope you don't mind if I zig here but I want to ask/talk about something you said earlier, and it might have been this thread or another one I'm not sure.

You said that Christian's are never called sinners. So I checked your right. Yeah I see that smile breaking out on your face. I understand it to a point, but must admit to some confusion. How can all sin and fall short of the glory of God, and yet not be sinners at the same time?

[Vickilynn]

Vickilynn, that would be fine, except that in my scenario John is not repentant. He has not repented of homosexuality, but continues to live in it. He is contuing to have intercourse with other men because his church told him that he could still be a Christian while enagaging in sin with other men. No repentance is at all involved in my scenario.

No, it's not inconsistent at all Shiloh. The church's job is to disciple this new brother and teach him the Word of G-d and show him what G-d says about the sin of homosexuality. The church is to love him enough to teach him the truth. We are to open our arms to him and show him his sin. We are to train the disciples in G-d's Word. We are not sending him any messages other than G-d's Word and teaching him that he is committing sin. But that does not negate the fact that he is a brother in Messiah and a member of His Body. (see above) We should TRAIN the disciples.

I mean, looking at it from John's perspective, he would ask, "If my homosexuality does not bar me from being a Christian, why should it be reason enough to bar me from participating as a full member of the body of Christ just like other Christians?" It is inconsistent to declare him a full Christian while barring from the rights and privileges other Christians have in the body.

Shiloh, somehow you're not hearing me. The church does not save. Jesus saves. John is saved because he repented of all the sins he knows he commits and he gives his life to Jesus and he belongs to Jesus and is a member of the Body of Messiah. Romans 10:9-10.

THEN, the church's job is to SHOW him homosexuality is a sin. So John NOW has to decide whether to accept the truth from Scriptures or not.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, somehow you're not hearing me. The church does not save. Jesus saves. John is saved because he repented of all the sins he knows he commits and he gives his life to Jesus and he belongs to Jesus and is a member of the Body of Messiah. Romans 10:9-10.

It is the Church's Job to show John BEFORE becoming a Christ that homosexuality is a sin and to not accept him as a Christian until he comes to that place. A homosexual must be shown from the Scriptures that it is sin and if he refuses to accept the Bible's definition of sin, and repent of it ALL, then he is not ready to turn to Christ.

Salvation is described as an inward transformation where old things have passed away and behold all things have become new. If a homosexual gets saved, but is still a homosexual and sees nothing wrong with that and is unaware of any inconsitency between practising homosexuality and New Testament Christianity, he has not undergone that transformation.

[Vickilynn]

Shiloh, somehow you're not hearing me. The church does not save. Jesus saves. John is saved because he repented of all the sins he knows he commits and he gives his life to Jesus and he belongs to Jesus and is a member of the Body of Messiah. Romans 10:9-10.

It is the Church's Job to show John BEFORE becoming a Christ that homosexuality is a sin and to not accept him as a Christian until he comes to that place. A homosexual must be shown from the Scriptures that it is sin and if he refuses to accept the Bible's definition of sin, and repent of it ALL, then he is not ready to turn to Christ.

Shalom Shiloh,

Ok, you win.

I disagree but I'm not going to debate it with you any longer. We just hold different views.

[firehill]

Shiloh, somehow you're not hearing me. The church does not save. Jesus saves. John is saved because he repented of all the sins he knows he commits and he gives his life to Jesus and he belongs to Jesus and is a member of the Body of Messiah. Romans 10:9-10.

It is the Church's Job to show John BEFORE becoming a Christ that homosexuality is a sin and to not accept him as a Christian until he comes to that place. A homosexual must be shown from the Scriptures that it is sin and if he refuses to accept the Bible's definition of sin, and repent of it ALL, then he is not ready to turn to Christ.

It is not the churches JOB to show John BEFORE becoming a christian that homosexuality is a sin. Chapter and verse please. I also say this because that is too general of a statement though those who are gifted in teaching have their responsibilites in Christ... Nothing is that simple Shilo and I'd expect you to know that. No, we can too accept one's testimony of salvation though not their conduct. I do agree though that a homosexusl should be shown thier sin from scriptures and that once he 'Understands with heart mind and soul' what the bible says on the matter (IF God has not already shown Himself to John regarding the matter) then and only then if he refuses to repent that we can safley conclude that one has not decided to turn to Christ.

'The truth is never simple.' Which means a WHOLE lot.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, I hope you don't mind if I zig here but I want to ask/talk about something you said earlier, and it might have been this thread or another one I'm not sure.

You said that Christian's are never called sinners. So I checked your right. Yeah I see that smile breaking out on your face. I understand it to a point, but must admit to some confusion. How can all sin and fall short of the glory of God, and yet not be sinners at the same time?

A sinner is not someone who sins. The Bible never defines "sinner" in that fashion. 100% of the time a sinner is referred to as one who is unredeemed.

Christians are always referred to as saints, in the New Testament. When you get saved, there is a change of status. For example:

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Notice what Paul says: "When we were sinners;" "when we were enemies." He speaks in the past tense. "We were sinners" implies that we are something else now. I was sinner before I accepted Christ.

Justification is a change in status. I was once guilty, but now have been justified by faith. I am declared innocent and have been delared as being in rightstanding with God. My sin nature has not been eradicated yet, but that is not how I am judged.

We were sinners, but now we are saints. We were slaves to sin, but now we are sons and daughters of God and a kingdom of priests. We were once darkness, but now we are light in the Lord. Salvation is both an inward transformation and an a legal change of status. We are new creations, old things have passed away and all things have become new. We are born of God, of incorruptable seed. We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin because are identifed with Christ in death and are identified with Him in His resurrection. We are dead to sin, but are also risen with Christ to walk in the newness of life.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, somehow you're not hearing me. The church does not save. Jesus saves. John is saved because he repented of all the sins he knows he commits and he gives his life to Jesus and he belongs to Jesus and is a member of the Body of Messiah. Romans 10:9-10.

It is the Church's Job to show John BEFORE becoming a Christ that homosexuality is a sin and to not accept him as a Christian until he comes to that place. A homosexual must be shown from the Scriptures that it is sin and if he refuses to accept the Bible's definition of sin, and repent of it ALL, then he is not ready to turn to Christ.

It is not the churches JOB to show John BEFORE becoming a christian that homosexuality is a sin. Chapter and verse please. I also say this because that is too general of a statement though those who are gifted in teaching have their responsibilites in Christ... Nothing is that simple Shilo and I'd expect you to know that. No, we can too accept one's testimony of salvation though not their conduct. I do agree though that a homosexusl should be shown thier sin from scriptures and that once he 'Understands with heart mind and soul' what the bible says on the matter (IF God has not already shown Himself to John regarding the matter) then and only then if he refuses to repent that we can safley conclude that one has not decided to turn to Christ.

'The truth is never simple.' Which means a WHOLE lot.

The Bible teaches that repentance precedes salvation. Jesus said that he came to call the sinners to repentance. We do not operate from a higher moral standard than Jesus does. No one can profess Christ while living in aberrant sin. I don't care what your liberal Cracker Jack "theology" says. The Bible is very clear on that matter. If a person rejects the Scriptures and the Scripture's definition of sin, they cannot see themselves as sinners or their need for Christ. One cannot be gay AND be a true follower of Christ. It is the Church's job to teach what the says about sin. No one practicing homosexuality can enter the Kingdom of God. They lost, they without Christ and are sliding down a greased pole straight into hell. They need Jesus, they need their sin to be exposed not coddled.