Teaching the bible

[Guest]

Sometime back, I was in a long debate about female Pastors. When I first entered the debate, I was 100 percent convinced women couldn't be Pastors because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of Bishop. The main person I was debating was Firehill, and she pointed out that the Bishop and the Pastor are not one and the same. After looking into the matter, I had to agree, and that meant I had to accept female Pastors, provided they don't do the job of a Bishop or Deacon. I spent time looking into the various offices in scripture as a result, and here is what I discovered. The bottom line is that women can't be the "husband of one wife," because the word translated to husband is aner, and that can only mean a man. As such, women can't qualify to be bishops or deacons, but Firehill was right in saying that women can be called of God to fill any of the ministry gifts of Apostle, Pastor, Prophet, Teacher or Evangelist. Those are divine callings. I was waiting to hear back from Firehill, but she quit posting:

I know it has been a couple of weeks since we were discussing this topic, but I did want to get back into it. The questions being asked were, first of all, is there ever a time where someone is wrong to teach the Bible? I think that most agree that there are some circumstances where it would be innapropriate. At the same time, the real intent of the question was not to get an answer to whether or not there are times where we shouldn't teach the Bible, but whether or not it is wrong to use the spiritual gifts God has given us? Obviously, if we have been given a spiritual gift, we should not quench the Spirit, but we should use those gifts.

Then came the next question, which is where this was leading in the first place? Does God give the gift of Pastor to women, and should they be using that God given gift? When we first began, my feeling was that Pastor was not a gift, but an office. Like many others, I have been equating the office of bishop to Pastor, and knowing that women are not qualified to be bishops, I concluded that God would never give women a Pastoral gift.

Firehill pointed out that the Greek word used for Bishop is differen't from the word used for Pastor, so I decided to look into it. She was indeed correct, so then I was faced with a new delima. If the Pastor is a gift and not an office, then the qualifications for bishop do not apply, and women may indeed have this gift. At the same time, the church has turned the role of Pastor into the office of Bishop, which would mean that something would need to be done about correcting this problem before women could fulfil this gift without being guilty of holding an office they are not qualified to hold.

This is kind of a new idea, so I am trying to give serious consideration to it. As such, let's begin with the idea that Firehill is correct and the Pastor is a gift and not an office. The Pastor today is holding an office in most churches, that of bishop, and is told they should meet the Biblical qualifications for Bishop to be a Pastor. Indeed, if we are going to make the Pastor a Bishop, which is an office, they should meet the qualifications for that office. On the other hand, we should be seeking to follow Biblical order, and that means that the Bishop can and probably should be made into a separate office from the Pastor. I was reminded of a passage of scripture found in Acts 6:1-7

1 AND in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nocolas a proselyte of Antioch:

6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

I believe this is where the offices of Bishop and Deacon were created. Those gifted in ministering the Word didn't have time to attend to the carnal matters, so they appointed men for that task. The apostles were to give their time to prayer and the ministry of the Word. I am going to work from the idea that those who have the ministry gifts today are to follow that same pattern. They are not to be tied up with the daily running of the church, but are to be giving their time to prayer and the Word, and the carnal matters are to be taken care of by Deacons and Bishops. Let's look at the minstry gifts again mentioned in Ephesians 4:11.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are the 5 ministry gifts and they were given for "the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." The offices of overseight carried out by the bishops and deacons apply to the carnal matters, yet these offices are for the spiritual.

I went back and looked up the definition of the words describing the spiritual gifts of the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Here is what I found.

Apostles- (apostolos) A delegate, and ambassador of the Gospel; Officially a commissioner of Christ (with miraculous powers) apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

That is the definition of an apostle. If you look at what the apostles did in the Bible, their office greatly resembled what we call missionaries. We even speak of Paul's missionary journeys, and many Bibles have maps outlining them in the back. I believe that is what an apostle does. They travel to areas that have never heard the gospel, preach to them, and establish churches with those who become converts.

Prophets- (prophetes) A foreteller, and inspired speaker, by ext. a poet: prophet.

The prophet as I see it is someone who is inspired to teach prophetic messages. They also may be given messages that are directly from God to the church. For instance, God may lead a prophet to deliver a message coming against covetousness if the Spirit is aware this has become a problem in a local congregation. If the congregation is discouraged, the Spirit may inspire the prophet to give out a message to lift them up. This would not be based on the person's natural ability to see trouble, but would be shown to them by God. I also believe the prophet may be used to deliver a word of knowledge in certain instances.

Evangelist- (evangelistes) A preacher of the gospel, evangelist.

This one seems to be pretty plain. An evangelist is a preacher of the gospel, the good news of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. His objective is to share the good news with the expectation that God will convict hearts and souls will be saved.

Pastors (poimen) Shepherd, Pastor.

The Pastor acts as a shepherd to his sheep, which would be the church he is spiritually over. He looks after them, minsters the Word, and prays for them. Like a shepherd, he is aware if someone is sick, wanders away, or is going through a spiritual battle, and he does everything in his power to keep them safe from spiritual danger.

Teachers (didaskalos) An instructor, doctor, master, teacher.

A teacher is someone very knowledgeable in the scriptures. In that way, he is refered to as a doctor or master, meaning an expert. His job is to teach the meaning of scripture, to teach doctrine.

Those would be the ministry gifts, and their authority is limited to spiritual matters, rather than the carnal day to day running of the church. Next comes the Bishop and Deacon.

Bishop (episokpe)- Superindence: Inspection for relief, episcopate, office of a bishop, bishoprick, visitation

(episkopus)- A superintendant, Christian officer in general, charge of a (or the) church, bishop, overseer.

If you look at what the bishop does, you will notice that most Pastors today are given the authority of the bishop, and most churches don't have bishops. Black churches even call the Pastor the Bishop. It appears however that this is not the Biblical model, and that the Pastor is being given authority he should not have. It is no wonder that Pastors are so overwhelmed. They are not only supposed to be a spiritual shepherd to the people entrusted to them, but they are also forced to deal with the general oversight of the carnal matters. Even the early apostles couldn't handle such a load, so they created this position.

Deacon (diakaneo)- To be an attendant, wait upon (menial or as a host) friend, or fig. teacher, to act as a Christian deacon, minister, (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

Earlier I mentioned how the apostles didn't have time to wait on tables. This job was given to the deacon. They are to be concerned with things like making sure the widows are taken care of. They are literally ministers, or attendants. In some cases, they also teach the Bible.

Now, given this information, here is a general overview of how a Biblical Church would be set up. Each church would have bishops and deacons that would tend to the carnal matters. The bishops would be the highest office. The bishop would deal with things like making sure the bills were paid, the services were conducted, maintenance performed on the building, the setting up of revivals, etc. The deacons would be in charge of seeing to it widows are taken care of, taking up the collection of alms, and visitation.

With regard to the ministry gifts, all gifted people would have the opportunity to use their gifts in the church. The pastor would be the spiritual shepherd, ministering the Word, praying for the congregation, protecting them from false teachers, and keeping them in the fold. The apostles would be missionaries sent out by the church to reach the world. They would be official delegates. The prophets would give out prophetic messages from the Lord to the church. The evangelists would focus on the message of the good news of the gospel, that souls would be saved. The teachers would focus on doctrine. Working together, we would have a well balanced church.

When it comes to the gifts, God gives them as he sees fit, and there are no Biblical qualifications. When it comes to the office of Bishop and Deacon, these offices do have qualifications, and those who fill these roles must meet them. As to how we select those in these offices, the best method I could come up with is that those who desire these offices should present themselves to the congregation. The congregation would look to see if the candidates were Biblically qualified to hold the offices, and if not, they would be eliminated from consideration. Of the qualified, the congregation would choose them through an election.

As I stated, this is a new idea of sorts, that the bishop and pastor are not one and the same, but I am trying to get the truth in the matter. Firehill stated they were not the same, and even though I dissagree with her on many matters, I don't like to dismiss any legitimate argument, regardless of the source. It turns out that she is correct in my judgement that the Pastor is not an office, but a ministry gift, and that the churches today are not following the Biblical pattern. With that in mind, if a woman is called to be a pastor, and as long as she is not being a bishop at the same time, there is nothing Biblically wrong with it.

If there is anyone that would like to continue this discussion, including Firehill if she still checks in, I would love to get further opinions? Are there others who feel that the current way the churches are being run are out of Biblical order? Is there any way to restore the original order? What about female Pastors, given the fact that a Pastor and a Bishop are not the same office? We were just beginning to explore this when the topic came to a halt.

[saved34]

Sometime back, I was in a long debate about female Pastors. When I first entered the debate, I was 100 percent convinced women couldn't be Pastors because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of Bishop. The main person I was debating was Firehill, and she pointed out that the Bishop and the Pastor are not one and the same. After looking into the matter, I had to agree, and that meant I had to accept female Pastors, provided they don't do the job of a Bishop or Deacon. I spent time looking into the various offices in scripture as a result, and here is what I discovered. The bottom line is that women can't be the "husband of one wife," because the word translated to husband is aner, and that can only mean a man. As such, women can't qualify to be bishops or deacons, but Firehill was right in saying that women can be called of God to fill any of the ministry gifts of Apostle, Pastor, Prophet, Teacher or Evangelist. Those are divine callings. I was waiting to hear back from Firehill, but she quit posting:

Butero, I don't think you can separate the office of a Bishop or Elder from the work of a pastor. Pastorship is more so a work than an office. The chief Apostle Peter considered himself an Elder who had the responsibilities of pastoral care for God's flock, and he admonished all the Elders to pastor the flock.

1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,

1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

Women are truly blessed with the gift of teaching just like men, but in the overseeing of the flock, God has called men to do this work. In the congregation women are to be submissive to the men in leadership, outside of the congregation, they have the entire field of the world to minister and preach to. I know we use the word Pastor today as if it is the main office of the Church, but scripture uses the word Bishop, Elder, or overseer, with overseer, teaching and pastoral care being the work, while Bishop or Elder being the office. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of adding the woman to the qualifications of being a leader in the Church, instead, he chose to give guidelines that instructs them to be in quiet submissiveness in the Church. The scripture does speak of women deacons though, and lists the qualifications that she must meet.

[Guest Butero]

Sometime back, I was in a long debate about female Pastors. When I first entered the debate, I was 100 percent convinced women couldn't be Pastors because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of Bishop. The main person I was debating was Firehill, and she pointed out that the Bishop and the Pastor are not one and the same. After looking into the matter, I had to agree, and that meant I had to accept female Pastors, provided they don't do the job of a Bishop or Deacon. I spent time looking into the various offices in scripture as a result, and here is what I discovered. The bottom line is that women can't be the "husband of one wife," because the word translated to husband is aner, and that can only mean a man. As such, women can't qualify to be bishops or deacons, but Firehill was right in saying that women can be called of God to fill any of the ministry gifts of Apostle, Pastor, Prophet, Teacher or Evangelist. Those are divine callings. I was waiting to hear back from Firehill, but she quit posting:

Butero, I don't think you can separate the office of a Bishop or Elder from the work of a pastor. Pastorship is more so a work than an office. The chief Apostle Peter considered himself an Elder who had the responsibilities of pastoral care for God's flock, and he admonished all the Elders to pastor the flock.

1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,

1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

Women are truly blessed with the gift of teaching just like men, but in the overseeing of the flock, God has called men to do this work. In the congregation women are to be submissive to the men in leadership, outside of the congregation, they have the entire field of the world to minister and preach to. I know we use the word Pastor today as if it is the main office of the Church, but scripture uses the word Bishop, Elder, or overseer, with overseer, teaching and pastoral care being the work, while Bishop or Elder being the office. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of adding the woman to the qualifications of being a leader in the Church, instead, he chose to give guidelines that instructs them to be in quiet submissiveness in the Church. The scripture does speak of women deacons though, and lists the qualifications that she must meet.

There is no question that today's Pastors will do the office of a Bishop, which is why women can't meet the qualifications for that office. At the same time, I am not sure that the Pastor should have the same job description a Bishop has? Having looked at the passage you just presented, it appears that the Elder is more likely to be the Pastor, as opposed to the Bishop? 1 Peter 5:1-4

1 THE elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind.

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

[saved34]

Sometime back, I was in a long debate about female Pastors. When I first entered the debate, I was 100 percent convinced women couldn't be Pastors because they couldn't meet the Biblical qualifications of Bishop. The main person I was debating was Firehill, and she pointed out that the Bishop and the Pastor are not one and the same. After looking into the matter, I had to agree, and that meant I had to accept female Pastors, provided they don't do the job of a Bishop or Deacon. I spent time looking into the various offices in scripture as a result, and here is what I discovered. The bottom line is that women can't be the "husband of one wife," because the word translated to husband is aner, and that can only mean a man. As such, women can't qualify to be bishops or deacons, but Firehill was right in saying that women can be called of God to fill any of the ministry gifts of Apostle, Pastor, Prophet, Teacher or Evangelist. Those are divine callings. I was waiting to hear back from Firehill, but she quit posting:

Butero, I don't think you can separate the office of a Bishop or Elder from the work of a pastor. Pastorship is more so a work than an office. The chief Apostle Peter considered himself an Elder who had the responsibilities of pastoral care for God's flock, and he admonished all the Elders to pastor the flock.

1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,

1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

Women are truly blessed with the gift of teaching just like men, but in the overseeing of the flock, God has called men to do this work. In the congregation women are to be submissive to the men in leadership, outside of the congregation, they have the entire field of the world to minister and preach to. I know we use the word Pastor today as if it is the main office of the Church, but scripture uses the word Bishop, Elder, or overseer, with overseer, teaching and pastoral care being the work, while Bishop or Elder being the office. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of adding the woman to the qualifications of being a leader in the Church, instead, he chose to give guidelines that instructs them to be in quiet submissiveness in the Church. The scripture does speak of women deacons though, and lists the qualifications that she must meet.

There is no question that today's Pastors will do the office of a Bishop, which is why women can't meet the qualifications for that office. At the same time, I am not sure that the Pastor should have the same job description a Bishop has? Having looked at the passage you just presented, it appears that the Elder is more likely to be the Pastor, as opposed to the Bishop? 1 Peter 5:1-4

1 THE elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind.

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

From my limited studies in the Greek, it seems that Bishops,Elders, or overseers are exchangeable.(Not saying they are the same greek words, but the title seems to reflect the work done) In other words, there are no offices that are higher than an Elder or Bishop. If a man is leading a congregation he is an Overseer/ Bishop. I could be wrong and would seriously like to be corrected if that is the case. This is very important to be sure on. LOl sorry for using the ISV. I just wanted to show that the titles are used interchangeable, with the office of Pastor being one of tradition, more so than out of scripture.

1Ti 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. - NASB

1Ti 3:1 This is a trustworthy saying: The one who would an elder be, a noble task desires he. - ISV

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. - KJV

[OneLight]

There are three offices stated in 1 Timothy, Bishop/Overseer, Elder and Deacon, which are different from each other. They are as follows:

Bishop/Overseer
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
investigation, inspection, visitationthat act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sadoversightoverseership, office, charge, the office of an elderthe overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

Elder
πρεσβύτερος
presbyteros
elder, of age,the elder of two peopleadvanced in life, an elder, a seniorforefathersa term of rank or officeamong the Jewsmembers of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justiceamong the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeablythe twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

Deacon
διάκονος
diakonos
one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, ministerthe servant of a kinga deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their usea waiter, one who serves food and drink

Hope this helps.

[saved34]

There are three offices stated in 1 Timothy, Bishop/Overseer, Elder and Deacon, which are different from each other. They are as follows:

Bishop/Overseer
ἐπισκοπή
episkopē
investigation, inspection, visitationthat act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sadoversightoverseership, office, charge, the office of an elderthe overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

Elder
πρεσβύτερος
presbyteros
elder, of age,the elder of two peopleadvanced in life, an elder, a seniorforefathersa term of rank or officeamong the Jewsmembers of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justiceamong the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeablythe twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

Deacon
διάκονος
diakonos
one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, ministerthe servant of a kinga deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their usea waiter, one who serves food and drink

Hope this helps.
This is a great post, Onelight, but where in scripture is an Elder differentiated from that of a Bishop? I know the word Elder can refer to one that is older, but it is also used in the sense of an office as well, and it is used interchangeably with Bishop in the different Bible versions. In other words I'm asking, isn't their only the offices of Bishop and deacons? I'll patiently wait for your response. Also, please show me by scripture so I can study this further.

[Tyler John]

This is a fascinating discussion.

I feel that there is too much application of common business culture to our understanding of the NT models of leadership and office. The NT writers had a very different experience and understanding because they were in a different culture and age. We equate leadership with hierarchical position and so our interpretation of a passage in, say, Ephesians is very different from Paul's intent. The key to understanding biblical leadership and office is to understand the nature of service, not to define or redefine how we apply the word 'service' to a business model of leadership. God wants a very flat model of leadership - he is at the top and the rest of us are equals who look to him as leader. He made this plain to the Israelites, who thought they knew better and chose a king anyway. Understanding that gifts to the church, like gifts to the individual follower, are non-hierarchical and intended for service, not position, helps us to gain a better perspective on God's plan for all of us.

It has not helped our understanding that the KJV translated words in a way that suited the prevailing views of the time about leadership. It was an 'official' translation, designed amongst other things to secure the royal and eclesiastical control of religion in England and Wales. The words used were laden with political meaning. This does not make the translation any less reliable, but it does mean that we have to be aware that the culture which formed the precise wording was not the same as the culture of the early church. KJV words worked their way into everyday speech and have been used ever since without true regard for their underlying meanings. The common modern understanding of 'bishop', 'prophet' or even 'teacher' is somewhat different from the Tudor understanding and even more so compared with the NT understanding.

While finding his writing less than elegant, I think Frank Viola's Re-imaginaing Church is a very good discussion of the whole issue. Although not focused primarily spiritual gifts and leadership, an ebook with some relevant and interesting ideas is John Philip's Fibs, Lies and Scripture.

As to whether women can lead, well, we have only to look at examples from the bible of women who were either leaders or held office. Bu again, we have to remember that translations into English have strongly affected our perceptions due to the prevailing cultures of the times. A fine example of this is Paul's greeting to Junia as an apostle, translated most frequently as 'Junius' to make it a male name. I suspect this is not so much becasue the translators felt it was a matter of correct doctrine as that the prevailing culture made it impossible for them to conceive of a female apostle. We must nver forget how much we are all affected by our cultures.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Tyler John