Can sin be rationalized away?

[st. Worm]

You are again misunderstanding what I am saying. We will struggle with our sin nature until the day we die.

However, I do tire of people saying such as, "I sin all the time," yet when asked how they sinned, they are clueless. So, how do you know you have sinned?

So, if you don't know - ask the Holy Spirit to reveal your sin to you.

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting." (Psalm 139:23,24)

That being said, here is another verse I'd like to hear your understanding of:

Matthew 5:48 -

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV)

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NIV)

Therefore you re to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NASB)

(Yup, every translation I have looked at, and I did check others, uses the word "perfect".)

I do not need to feel like I am a sinner Nebula to know that I am.

SW - I never said you are not a sinner. I never said I am not a sinner.

I am simply making a distinction between "sin" and "sin nature", whereas it seems to me you are claiming they are one and the same.

God's Word and His laws tell me that I am regardless of how I feel about it. The wages of sin are death and I have not missed a payday I'm afraid. We sin because we are sinners. Yes, I often am personally convicted of my sins and my conscience feels it but that is not the test of sin.

Do you see yourself as a sinner doomed to sin and this is all you will ever do?

Or do you see yourself as a ransomed sinner who has been given the power to overcome the sin through the blood of Christ?

Even the most righteous among us is still a sinner when viewed under the harsh microscope of the Law and we must confess that we sin even though our feelings of conscience do not tell us so.

Are you under Law or under grace?

Ro 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Also I am pretty sure the NIV, the ESV and many other translations use maturity and not perfection.

You mean for Hebrews 6:1?

OK, let me look up the on-line Lexicon on the word in question:

Original Word: teleiovth

Transliterated Word: Teleiotes

Definition

1. perfection

a. the state of the more intelligent

b. moral and spiritual perfection

Word Origin: tevleio

Definition

1. brought to its end, finished

2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness

3. perfect

4. that which is perfect

a. consummate human integrity and virtue

b. of men

1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Other use of teleiovth:

Col 3:14 -

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (KJV)

And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (NIV)

And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. (ESV)

Other uses of tevleio:

Click here for link and then click on the books of the Bible - it will take you to the specific verses.

But here is a sample:

Mt 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mt 19:21 - Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Eph. 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philip. 3:15 - Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

(If you wish to see these verses in other translations, you may do so http://bible1.crosswalk.com/. )

As far as the other verse in question, perfection comes to us only because of our position in Christ.

Please explain your understanding of how that translates into your life?

Does God also command us to do things we cannot do? Of course He does. He commands us to be perfect and sinless knowing that we cannot. That is the whole point of why he sent His only begotten. He is our righteousness and perfection.

But yet, as I hear your argument, I do not hear you saying He has given us the power to overcome our sin nature - through Him, yes, but but overcome nonetheless.

Now would you please answer my question? Thanks.

Do you mean this question:

"Are you saying on the one hand you are not a follower of Pelagius but on the other hand that you believe sinless perfection is a possibility for us in this life?"

I answered that when I said, "You are again misunderstanding what I am saying. We will struggle with our sin nature until the day we die."

You did not answer my question. Once again, are you using those verses to say that we are capable of sinless perfection in this life?

sw

[nebula]

You did not answer my question. Once again, are you using those verses to say that we are capable of sinless perfection in this life?

I do not believe"sinless perfection," as you put it, is what the Scriptures are stating. We will always struggle with sin, and we will often fail.

The question is: what do you believe the Scriptures to mean by "perfection?"

Ga 5:24 - And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Do you believe your flesh to be crucified with Christ? What does that mean to your life?

[Eddie B]

2 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Wouldn't the following apply to the homosexual as well as anyone committing ANY sexual immorality?

1 Thess 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Hi tsth,

For a Christian? Absolutely! All you have to do is read it and the Holy Spirt(if you have the Holy Spirit) will convict you to repent, whether you choose to do so by faith is another matter.

[nebula]

The old Adam must be continually put to death by confession and faith but he never really goes away or "shrinks".

SW -

How do you reconcile this with these Scriptures?

Rom. 6:6,7 - knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Ephesians 4:17-24

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:8-10

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

1) Do you believe that having been "born again" (John 3), your flesh has been crucified with Christ, that you have put off the old man and have put on the new man? If so, how does that translate into your life?

2) By the command to "put off" anger, blasphemy, etc., do you not think that action (recognizing the temptation to sin and making the choice to act differntly) should be included with "faith and confession"?

[Eddie B]

You did not answer my question. Once again, are you using those verses to say that we are capable of sinless perfection in this life?

I do not believe"sinless perfection," as you put it, is what the Scriptures are stating. We will always struggle with sin, and we will often fail.

The question is: what do you believe the Scriptures to mean by "perfection?"

Ga 5:24 - And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Do you believe your flesh to be crucified with Christ? What does that mean to your life?

Hello,

Just thought i would add my 2 cents for what it's worth, hope you don't mind?

When I was saved by Christ I became perfect in Christs righteousness by faith, when I sin(lack of faith in truth) i'm not less perfect I just i'm not in communion with Christ(growing by faith in maturing, or being more like Him) so i must confess and repent to get back in communion with Him(thats when i'm maturing by faith, co-crucifiction,co-burial-co-death,co-resurrection, learning to live the life of Christ by faith in dependence upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten and inable me to do so.

[Fiosh]

You did not answer my question. Once again, are you using those verses to say that we are capable of sinless perfection in this life?

I do not believe"sinless perfection," as you put it, is what the Scriptures are stating. We will always struggle with sin, and we will often fail.

The question is: what do you believe the Scriptures to mean by "perfection?"

Ga 5:24 - And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Do you believe your flesh to be crucified with Christ? What does that mean to your life?

Hello,

Just thought i would add my 2 cents for what it's worth, hope you don't mind?

When I was saved by Christ I became perfect in Christs righteousness by faith, when I sin(lack of faith in truth) i'm not less perfect I just i'm not in communion with Christ(growing by faith in maturing, or being more like Him) so i must confess and repent to get back in communion with Him(thats when i'm maturing by faith, co-crucifiction,co-burial-co-death,co-resurrection, learning to live the life of Christ by faith in dependence upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten and inable me to do so.

Your 2 cents are always welcome, Eddie B. And, it was worth much more than 2 pennies.

[Fiosh]

RE: " the only thing not of sin that we do is faith"

sw, are you a Kierkegaard fan? In A Sickness Unto Death he writes: "the opposite of sin is faith".

Just curious.

[st. Worm]

RE: " the only thing not of sin that we do is faith"

sw, are you a Kierkegaard fan? In A Sickness Unto Death he writes: "the opposite of sin is faith".

Just curious.

I am a fan of Paul.

Whatever is not from faith is sin.

[st. Worm]

You did not answer my question. Once again, are you using those verses to say that we are capable of sinless perfection in this life?

I do not believe"sinless perfection," as you put it, is what the Scriptures are stating. We will always struggle with sin, and we will often fail.

The question is: what do you believe the Scriptures to mean by "perfection?"

Ga 5:24 - And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Do you believe your flesh to be crucified with Christ? What does that mean to your life?

Anytime you want to answer my question I will resume answering yours.

sw

[st. Worm]

You did not answer my question. Once again, are you using those verses to say that we are capable of sinless perfection in this life?

I do not believe"sinless perfection," as you put it, is what the Scriptures are stating. We will always struggle with sin, and we will often fail.

The question is: what do you believe the Scriptures to mean by "perfection?"

Ga 5:24 - And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Do you believe your flesh to be crucified with Christ? What does that mean to your life?

Hello,

Just thought i would add my 2 cents for what it's worth, hope you don't mind?

When I was saved by Christ I became perfect in Christs righteousness by faith, when I sin(lack of faith in truth) i'm not less perfect I just i'm not in communion with Christ(growing by faith in maturing, or being more like Him) so i must confess and repent to get back in communion with Him(thats when i'm maturing by faith, co-crucifiction,co-burial-co-death,co-resurrection, learning to live the life of Christ by faith in dependence upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten and inable me to do so.

So unless your repent of each sin you have committed you are not in "communion" with Jesus? Do you have any Scripture to support that?

sw