Youth Suspended Over SKETCH of Gun

[Axxman]

The people (the masses if you like) allow government to exist (yes, that's right "allow government to exist", they do pay for its existance you must realise) for the benefit of the people, not so that government can "bite the hand that feeds it" by "pushing round" the people and following the personal agenda of despots and providing luxurious living for politicians and senior bureaucrats.

The sooner people realise that they have the power to "reign in" their employees - their government, the better off they'll be. The people exist to serve God, they don't need a government to do it for them.

How can a government exist to serve God, when it is an invention of the people and all the people don't serve God. You're right about one thing, they should. Then maybe their government could, through them, serve God. But until then, no government has the right to go against what the people want.

Wow!! Could you please provide an example of this 'Utopian' government system?

Also, while your at it, could you please provide a scriptural basis for your opinion that its okay for people to "reign in" or exercise ANY control over the government.

[Eliyahuw]

The people (the masses if you like) allow government to exist (yes, that's right "allow government to exist", they do pay for its existance you must realise) for the benefit of the people, not so that government can "bite the hand that feeds it" by "pushing round" the people and following the personal agenda of despots and providing luxurious living for politicians and senior bureaucrats.

The sooner people realise that they have the power to "reign in" their employees - their government, the better off they'll be. The people exist to serve God, they don't need a government to do it for them.

How can a government exist to serve God, when it is an invention of the people and all the people don't serve God. You're right about one thing, they should. Then maybe their government could, through them, serve God. But until then, no government has the right to go against what the people want.

Wow!! Could you please provide an example of this 'Utopian' government system?

Also, while your at it, could you please provide a scriptural basis for your opinion that its okay for people to "reign in" or exercise ANY control over the government.

Constitution and the bill of rights effectively control government, and the 2nd amendment gives its citizens the power and authority to remove that government if it doesn't uphold the law of the land which is the constitution.

It is every citizens Duty to rise up and bear arms against this government if it attempts to overthrow the authority of the citizens.

As for scriptural basis, were to follow the law, and since the law of the land allows us to overthrow a out of control gover5nment, were well within the bounds set by scripture.

[rtwo]

I'm having a little trouble coping with the fact that I've spent an entire thread agreeing (in principle, at any rate) with Lorax and Buck... huh.

I'll not comment on the police/riot issue beyond the fact that I don't see hard evidence (beyond the boots, which, as has been stated, can be bought anywhere) to suggest that the police actually did this.

Now, to reply to Axx re: God and the First Amendment...

I disagree fully with you on this. Enforced worship isn't worship. I bleieve God values the ability of humans to choose other gods (though He doesn't respect the choice to do so), because it allows us to truly choose Him. A religion enforced by Government can never work... men are fallen and incapable of theocracy in that sense.

A true theocracy, on the other hand, is what we look forward to in Heaven -- where our choice has already been made, and we worship in accod.

Any bent toward authoritarianism, even a percieved theocracy, is just begging for trouble ... a government that recognizes liberty is the only just form of government.

[kari21]

I'm having a little trouble coping with the fact that I've spent an entire thread agreeing (in principle, at any rate) with Lorax and Buck... huh.

I'll not comment on the police/riot issue beyond the fact that I don't see hard evidence (beyond the boots, which, as has been stated, can be bought anywhere) to suggest that the police actually did this.

Now, to reply to Axx re: God and the First Amendment...

I disagree fully with you on this. Enforced worship isn't worship. I bleieve God values the ability of humans to choose other gods (though He doesn't respect the choice to do so), because it allows us to truly choose Him. A religion enforced by Government can never work... men are fallen and incapable of theocracy in that sense.

A true theocracy, on the other hand, is what we look forward to in Heaven -- where our choice has already been made, and we worship in accod.

Any bent toward authoritarianism, even a percieved theocracy, is just begging for trouble ... a government that recognizes liberty is the only just form of government.

Indeed. Anyone with any backbone would resist being forced to do anything against their free will. It reminds me of those people in the millenium who will give the impression of following Christ, as He will be ruling with an iron rod, but when Satan is released after the thousand years, they will join his last rebellion against God...

[Axxman]

Constitution and the bill of rights effectively control government, and the 2nd amendment gives its citizens the power and authority to remove that government if it doesn't uphold the law of the land which is the constitution.

It is every citizens Duty to rise up and bear arms against this government if it attempts to overthrow the authority of the citizens.

As for scriptural basis, were to follow the law, and since the law of the land allows us to overthrow a out of control gover5nment, were well within the bounds set by scripture.

Thats VERY true...we are to follow the law of the land...right up until it begins to conflict with God's word. So again...where in God's word are we authorized to overthrow governments? We are not given any such scriptural authorization that I'm aware of. The 2nd amendment is just as ungodly as the 1st amendment in that it flies right in the face of everything the bible teaches us about respecting and obeying the governing authorities that God places over us.

[rtwo]

Constitution and the bill of rights effectively control government, and the 2nd amendment gives its citizens the power and authority to remove that government if it doesn't uphold the law of the land which is the constitution.

It is every citizens Duty to rise up and bear arms against this government if it attempts to overthrow the authority of the citizens.

As for scriptural basis, were to follow the law, and since the law of the land allows us to overthrow a out of control gover5nment, were well within the bounds set by scripture.

Thats VERY true...we are to follow the law of the land...right up until it begins to conflict with God's word. So again...where in God's word are we authorized to overthrow governments? We are not given any such scriptural authorization that I'm aware of. The 2nd amendment is just as ungodly as the 1st amendment in that it flies right in the face of everything the bible teaches us about respecting and obeying the governing authorities that God places over us.

This is a very different government than the one that existed when the Bible was written. This is a government -designed- for, by and of the people. Not quite the same as the Roman Empire.

[Axxman]

Now, to reply to Axx re: God and the First Amendment...

I disagree fully with you on this. Enforced worship isn't worship. I bleieve God values the ability of humans to choose other gods (though He doesn't respect the choice to do so), because it allows us to truly choose Him. A religion enforced by Government can never work... men are fallen and incapable of theocracy in that sense.

A true theocracy, on the other hand, is what we look forward to in Heaven -- where our choice has already been made, and we worship in accod.

Any bent toward authoritarianism, even a percieved theocracy, is just begging for trouble ... a government that recognizes liberty is the only just form of government.

I respect your dissent. I would only say that I never meant to imply that worhip should be "forced." In fact, I don't believe it can be forced on anyone. However, just because we cannot force people to worship the true God, does not mean that we should support laws and customs that allow the worship of false gods.

You claim that religion enforced by government can never work...I would counter that we have an entire world history that shows governments devoid of Godly principles don't work either. So if we are practicing failure in any case...why not err on the side of serving God?

Lastly...liberty is a GREAT thing...I value the liberties I have in this country. I feel blessed to live the life I do, and I am greatful for the gov't that God has placed over me. Thats why I support our gov't wholeheartedly. However, i don't put my personal liberties ahead of serving God. I believe that the American form of government is the best form of government on earth, but it is NOT infallible, and it is NOT perfectly in tune with the word of God. Christians should accept that and stay in tune with Godly principles over man's...even to their own detriment.

[Axxman]

Indeed. Anyone with any backbone would resist being forced to do anything against their free will. It reminds me of those people in the millenium who will give the impression of following Christ, as He will be ruling with an iron rod, but when Satan is released after the thousand years, they will join his last rebellion against God...

Sometimes it takes just as much backbone to be obedient. I believe that being obedient to God is more important than following a set of "rights" devised by man just because they make our lives easier.

[Eliyahuw]

Constitution and the bill of rights effectively control government, and the 2nd amendment gives its citizens the power and authority to remove that government if it doesn't uphold the law of the land which is the constitution.

It is every citizens Duty to rise up and bear arms against this government if it attempts to overthrow the authority of the citizens.

As for scriptural basis, were to follow the law, and since the law of the land allows us to overthrow a out of control gover5nment, were well within the bounds set by scripture.

Thats VERY true...we are to follow the law of the land...right up until it begins to conflict with God's word. So again...where in God's word are we authorized to overthrow governments?

When the government is of the people, and the "servents of Government" usurp the authority of the people!

When the Servents tell their master that their master is now the slave, then its very biblical to take care of the problem

Government employees aka president, cngress, police, firefighters, ect ect are servents/employees. Their my employees and when they decide to set themselves above me or any other citizen, then we can set them back into their place.

We are not given any such scriptural authorization that I'm aware of. The 2nd amendment is just as ungodly as the 1st amendment in that it flies right in the face of everything the bible teaches us about respecting and obeying the governing authorities that God places over us.

I am afraid not 2nd amendment is not ungodly at all. In fact, Christ specifically held those that would fight for their country (NOTE COUNTRY, Not Government), in the highest regard and only had one specific commandment to them. To treat those under their authority with honesty and not with brutality and to be content with their pay for their service.

[Eliyahuw]

Indeed. Anyone with any backbone would resist being forced to do anything against their free will. It reminds me of those people in the millenium who will give the impression of following Christ, as He will be ruling with an iron rod, but when Satan is released after the thousand years, they will join his last rebellion against God...

Sometimes it takes just as much backbone to be obedient. I believe that being obedient to God is more important than following a set of "rights" devised by man just because they make our lives easier.

Intersting that you would violate rights set in place by God!