Baptism for the dead?

[EricH]

People can disagree all they want, but a doctrine is not the doctrine of Christ that does not include ALL of the doctrine of Christ.

And that is the rub. You feel you have a corner on the truth. Others feel that they do. That is why putting together various passages of scripture into coherent doctrine can be difficult. I happen to feel that you are mistaken in the way you have interpreted the requirements for salvation, and that teaching that baptism is a requirement for salvation is not a dcotrine of Jesus, but a false addition to the gospel.

[Eliyahuw]

When I read my bible I read such things as "for by grace year saved through faith" and "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and put them together while people who disagree with me lets one contradict the other. What kind of reasoning is that?

when the two verses you quote are put together, they contradict each other. sorry but you cannot combine them and create new doctrine. that would be false doctrine. since they would contradict each other, then there has to be another meaning for the two verses independantly. Baptism is not even considered in Eph 2:8&9, and i'll tell ya, if it is that important to salvation, Eph 2:8&9 would state that baptism is required. sorry but what your saying when the bible doesn't state that in some areas, and you have to go to another totally different scripture to make it work, your creating false doctrines!

Thats how the Catholic church fell into apostasy, and how the mormons created false teachings one of which is baptism of the dead, and 7DA created their cults, and the whole host of others that are cults.

[Guest Greg Davies]

O.K. y'all

The Mark 16:16 reference only makes sense when you consider that water baptism provides for something more that receiving Christ as you saviour. Note the end of the verse says that you are condemned for just not believing, meaning that "saved" in this verse is more that just believing. Remember the thief on the cross was never water baptized yet saved.

Greg, you said a lot of great things, but I have heard this before about the thief and a lot of people use it to dispute baptism. Let's go back to the scriptures and see what they say about this.

First, the New Testament did not come into effect until after the death of Christ -

Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Baptism is a doctrine of the New Testament and only required and taught in the New Testament. That did not take eftect until after Christ's death. Until then the Jews were under the Old Testament and Old Law.

Now, Christ had the power to forgive the thief's sin while he was still on this earth and it was done before the doctrine of baptism was a law.

Mark 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

That should answer that.

So, by this logic, I assume you believe that the Ephesians in Acts 19 weren't really saved until Paul water baptized them in the name of Jesus. And consequentaly, all the "believers" whom Apollos ministered to before Aquila and Prescilla taught him "more perfectly", and may have passed away before they were taught "more perfecly" were still "condemned" and therefore now in hell.

Luke, who wrote Acts, quotes Paul referring to the Ephesians as believers in verse 2 in chapter 19 within the context of knowing only John's baptism. If they were believers, then according to Mark 16 they were not condemned even though they had not yet been baptized in the Name. I believe they were saved and after being baptized in Jesus' name they born of not only of the Spirit, but also the water. Being born of the Spirit is enough to be saved from hell or not "condemned" (Titus 3:5).

Edited August 28, 2007 by Greg Davies

[Eliyahuw]

People can disagree all they want, but a doctrine is not the doctrine of Christ that does not include ALL of the doctrine of Christ.

And that is the rub. You feel you have a corner on the truth. Others feel that they do. That is why putting together various passages of scripture into coherent doctrine can be difficult. I happen to feel that you are mistaken in the way you have interpreted the requirements for salvation, and that teaching that baptism is a requirement for salvation is not a dcotrine of Jesus, but a false addition to the gospel.

Amen! The bible, each passage is strong enough to stand on its own. the passages about salvation do not require baptism for salvation and stand on their own merit. the passages about baptism being the means to recieve the gifts, and a symbolism of christs death burial and resurrection, it stands on its own. But if you combign the two, you destroy both by taking Christs doctrines and making them meaningless.

[Eliyahuw]

Bottom line is, if Christs sacrifice, his blood is not enough, then what that tells me is that he isn't powerful enough to save anything.

[Thaddaeus]

To all,

I completely sympathize with Cardcaptor here. This is not the only post that will go nowhere, but most posts go nowhere. It is just amazing the many different understandings one can derive from a single text, from a singular context on a subject that has actually been defined, believed and practiced since the Apostles.

Do any of you have any idea what the Truth might be when you have absolutely no proof of your own interpretation?

All false teachings are also based on scripture. Even some alternative religions have been based to a large degree on the Holy Scriptures.

Permit me to ask a rhetorical question.

How could you even prove to a Jehovah Witness that what you believe is the Truth versus what he believes the Truth to be? Both of you are basing your interpretation on Scripture? Who is correct?

Is it pure logic, great reasoning powers, great exegesis? I wager that any other person has the same tools as you do in arriving at their interpretation.

Of all the hundreds, even thousands of faiths now in existance, all claiming truth based on scripture, who has the Truth?

Is it truth because it is what you have developed or interpreted? All others are incorrect, or what I hear most, is that all are correct, all have equal weight and are as valid as any other. That makes the Mormon, Jehovah Witnesses on a par with Methodist, Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentacostals, Quakers, etc, etc, etc.

Do you realize that the Bible as you have it, is not all of the Gospel once given. You only have what was written, ONLY because the Apostles could not travel easily and a letter would need to suffice. All of Pauls letters are corrections based on many years of previous teaching in those reepsective Churches or to individuals, such as Timothy. The Gospels are the history, a synopsis of the experience they had traveling with Christ when on this earth. They did not record all things.

Just some thoughts on your attempt to arrive at some consensus of truth relative only to baptism.

Do you know that a extra biblical text may have been written before the Gospels themselves which explains baptism as it was understood in the very early Church as well as the Eucharist.

[Eliyahuw]

People can disagree all they want, but a doctrine is not the doctrine of Christ that does not include ALL of the doctrine of Christ.

And that is the rub. You feel you have a corner on the truth. Others feel that they do. That is why putting together various passages of scripture into coherent doctrine can be difficult. I happen to feel that you are mistaken in the way you have interpreted the requirements for salvation, and that teaching that baptism is a requirement for salvation is not a dcotrine of Jesus, but a false addition to the gospel.

Amen! The bible, each passage is strong enough to stand on its own. the passages about salvation do not require baptism for salvation and stand on their own merit. the passages about baptism being the means to recieve the gifts, and a symbolism of christs death burial and resurrection, it stands on its own. But if you combign the two, you destroy both by taking Christs doctrines and making them meaningless.

Then the way in which you believe is that we can just let scriptures contradict each other.

I never said that. I said that when two verses contradict each other, then your looking at the wrong thing! The bible does not contradict itself. SO if the two appear to contradict themselves, that means your reading/interpreting wrong.

And if you try to take the two contradicting verses and combign them, your creating scripture/doctrines that are false.

These passages stand on their own. there is a correct interpretation, one that explains why they appear to contradict. And it's not found by using one to overide the other one.

[Eliyahuw]

Bottom line is, if Christs sacrifice, his blood is not enough, then what that tells me is that he isn't powerful enough to save anything.

As long as your understanding is short sighted then that is all you will see it as. I have drawn out how we are to reach the blood. I 150% agree with you that the blood of Christ is that power, but what you are disagreeing with is how we obtain the blood. Christ gave us a way and I have shown through scripture, but you will not accept it.

Look, Christ gave us a way and it is simple enough that even a child can understand it! Not with all these catches and rules and proceedures.

All that it takes to reach the blood is NOTHING BUT

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[Guest]

Now Is The Time To Ask

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

John 4:10

For Living Fountains Of Waters

"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Revelation 7:17

Dear Brother

Are Towels Really Mandatory?

Oops!

John Jesus

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

John 1:33

Earth Heaven

He must increase, but I must decrease.

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

John 3:30-31

Religion Family

Ye must be born again.

John 3:7

Boast Gift

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:4-9

Of Water, Repentance And Belief

Salvation Repentance - John's Baptism By Water

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Acts 19:3

Salvation - Belief In The Lord Jesus

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:4

Believe And Be Saved

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

Clear?

No?

Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Be Assured Beloved

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 24-25

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

all claiming truth based on scripture, who has the Truth?

Whoever Has Jesus Has The Truth

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:6

Got Tradition Upon Your Back

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:8

Get Jesus

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10

Some Will Say This And Other's Will Say That

Hoping You'll Forget God's Holy Chat

The Rock And The Flood, Be Saved Or Be Sunk

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 7:24-27

So Be Sharp And Pray, Be Smart

Read God's Word To Know His Heart

One Narrow Road To Heaven's Sweet Gate

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:13-14

See Jesus And Be Blessed

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe