Baptism for the dead?

[Thaddaeus]

Eliyahuw,

???? what? sorry but Righteousness is impossible for man to obtain! christ fulfilled all righteousness on the cross.

Yes, but that is precisely what I was pointing out to you. You have applied the wrong application to the correct aspect of salvation.

We should not even be discussing anything that Christ did on the Cross. It is a completed event, a completed work of which man has nothing to do with.

When we believe, have faith in Christ, we are justified. We could not do the work, so faith accomplishes the act of Chrsit on the Cross which was accomplished for all mankind. There is no differentiation on Christ's work on the Cross. It does not pertain specifically to believers at all, but to mankind.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Nothing is done without the Grace of God. These are things man cannot do. First, man cannot save himself from the fall. That is what Christ accomplished for us. Now the other two are part of our personal salvation of our souls, but it is work done by God, but only with the cooperation of man, which we do by faith. Without the faith it will not be accomplished.

RIghteousness

is the concrete expression of "righteousness:" see JUSTIFICATION, A, No. 2. Note: In Hbr 1:8, AV, euthutes, "straightness, uprightness" (akin to euthus "straight, right"), is translated "righteousness" (RV, "uprightness;" AV, marg., "rightness, or straightness").

It is also synonomous with redemption, reconcile, justification, to be made righteous is to be made right as in a personal relationship. It is relational. But the context will tell you to whom it is being applied. So far, you are not applying it to the salvation of ones soul.

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Righteousness is imputed because christ was delivered for our offences, our sins. when he wsa crucified, we were justified and fulfilled the requirements of the law. then were made righteous.

Yes, but it was delievered or imputed to every single human being that every lived. It is much more straight forward in Rom 5:18-19. It is referencing the salvation of mankind from the fall.

The only way for the OT belivers to be righteous was through a blood sacrifice. Since christs blood was shed, that alone made all man justified and righteous.

Now the next step is mans, he must go and take the gift that God laid before him!

And the very same thing applies to us as beleivers today. We don't have the archtype any longer, don't need animal sacrifices but we still need constant forgiveness of which is available only because of that one sacrifice. We must remain righteous, that is, remain in a correct relationship with Christ. We do that through faith. As much as we are IN Christ, maturing, being made in In Image, as much as we are the Mind of Christ we are righteous IN HIM. We get it from HIM, but it is our righteousness.

uhhmm yes there is! Lots of statements in the bible that say believe on christ and you will be saved!

But believe is constant and since we are saved through faith, that evidence or good works is a constant requirement. Obedience, love are how we are saved by belief in Christ. Simply belief does not save you. Works don't save you. Baptism does not save you. Partaking of the Eucharist does not save you. BUT, they are all the ingredients of a faithful, living and walking IN Christ which is what will save you.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

See above, Not a single one of these is a stand-alone statement of being saved. All of them carry and ongoing active belief. But we already know that the THROUGH part of that through faith is works. Is living IN Christ. Living IN Him takes effort, work and constant vigilence

you have been joined to Jesus. This is an action, and actions will not save you. However, it is an act of obedience and a symbol of commitment

There you have it, belief or faith alone will not save you. Works alone will not save you. But faith and works will save you. They are actually synonomous in the NT.

Not just joined but must remain joined. both are decisions of man.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

there is that word, believeth again. It is constant, continuous action on the part of the believer. If we stop believing, which is no works, no love, no obedience, not doing His will, then we are no longer believers no longer being saved. Very explicit all through the NT.

NO it isn't that is a work. works do not save. Living in Christ shows that a person has been truely saved because once their saved they will change and become a new creature. You cannot be an old creature and work your way to heaven. ITs impossible.

you are not in an old creature. You have been made new, so that you can live in Christ. But living in Christ is all work. It is a cooperative, synergistic relationship. It is the journey that saves, not a single act along the way or for even a long time, if that person leaves the fold. Man can reject Christ freely at any time. There is no text anywhere that anyone has yet presented that man is able to keep from falling. God is ABLE to keep you from falling, IF we remain faithful. IF we are not faithful, He will not keep us from falling. We are going to be judged on how faithful we were with Christ. That we remained IN Him. That we persevered.

yes and thank God that won't condemn us to hell. All the judgement seat of christ is, is a accounting of what you have done through christ. Some of us will be kings with him and some will be streetsweepers! but none of them will be in hell.

What won't condemn you is that you are a believer, that you remained faithful. However, no place does it say that ONCE A BELIEVER ALWAYS A BELIEVER you will be saved anyway even if you became unfaithful. It says, the unbeliever is already condemned.

It is also an accounting of what we did IN Christ, and all the chaff will be burned away. But the key is one must be and remain a believer. Your difference of designations has to do with that difference of righteousness we have IN Christ. How we grew, matured from glory to glory. But if a believer leaves and leaves permanently, then there is no accounting, they are cast with those that never believed.

Any you are also correct, no beleiver will be in hell. How could that be? But what you fail to understand of the Gospel, is that we must remain faithful. We can become unbelievers. It is real and palatable.

[Thaddaeus]

Eliyahuw,

My statement: No place will you find that we are saved by faith.

Your response:

Amen, were saved through faith, not by faith.

but you have been ojecting to this view all through your previous post. you explain the very opposite of what this verse means.

Uhmm no were justified by Christs sacrifice. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. i don't see justification there.

Yes, but wrong justification. We lay claim to that justification by faith. We beleive that He saved us and we desire to be in Union with HIm. It is entrance into the Kingdom. We possess salvation, but we do not have it guaranteed from man's perspective, since we are now being saved THROUGH THAT FAITH. It must be active, constant, we must persevere to the end in order to inherit the Kingdom for an eternity. I Pet 1:4-5.

WEre saved only by Grace. Grace is Gods giving us unmerited favor.

That is why He saved and showed mercy to all human beings. Rom 11:32. Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22. as well as several more.

But the saving of our soul is a mutual, covenantal relationship that we agreed with God to meet the conditions of that relationship. If we do not meet them, the relationship is ended.

Ro 11:5,6, where as a definition is given, showing that salvation is not of works, that no man can work his way into heaven and no man can work for salvation.

Wront application again. This refers to Christ's work which man could never do. But we surely can do the work for which we were created. Both we and the works were created for us as human beings created in His Image. A totally different application of works. That is why we should not be discussing Christ's Work because it is not applicable to the topic.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Again, wrong application. We could not do any of this. Could man ever give himself life? Could man ever atone for his own sins? No, thalt is why Christ was needed. But that is also why this is not germaine to the topic. The topic deals with man's spiritual relationship, the covenantal, mutual working out of our salvation. The salvation of our individual souls.

[Eliyahuw]

Eliyahuw,

My statement: No place will you find that we are saved by faith.

Your response:

Amen, were saved through faith, not by faith.

but you have been ojecting to this view all through your previous post. you explain the very opposite of what this verse means.

Uhmm no were justified by Christs sacrifice. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. i don't see justification there.

Yes, but wrong justification. We lay claim to that justification by faith. We beleive that He saved us and we desire to be in Union with HIm. It is entrance into the Kingdom. We possess salvation, but we do not have it guaranteed from man's perspective, since we are now being saved THROUGH THAT FAITH. It must be active, constant, we must persevere to the end in order to inherit the Kingdom for an eternity. I Pet 1:4-5.

WEre saved only by Grace. Grace is Gods giving us unmerited favor.

That is why He saved and showed mercy to all human beings. Rom 11:32. Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22. as well as several more.

But the saving of our soul is a mutual, covenantal relationship that we agreed with God to meet the conditions of that relationship. If we do not meet them, the relationship is ended.

Ro 11:5,6, where as a definition is given, showing that salvation is not of works, that no man can work his way into heaven and no man can work for salvation.

Wront application again. This refers to Christ's work which man could never do. But we surely can do the work for which we were created. Both we and the works were created for us as human beings created in His Image. A totally different application of works. That is why we should not be discussing Christ's Work because it is not applicable to the topic.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Again, wrong application. We could not do any of this. Could man ever give himself life? Could man ever atone for his own sins? No, thalt is why Christ was needed. But that is also why this is not germaine to the topic. The topic deals with man's spiritual relationship, the covenantal, mutual working out of our salvation. The salvation of our individual souls.

Were talking about salvation aren't we, i do know how to apply the scripture. it is not the wrong application. salvation is all about grace! without it we have no hope of being saved.

And how is Rom 11:5 and 6 not relevant. It shows that no works can possibly save us. were saved only by the Grace of God. NOT BY WORKS.

This concept of salvation based on works, says that christ's sacrifice was meaningless! IT says that christ hasn't got the power to save us, it says God is falllible! it says God cannot save us without us working for it.

That is a lie straight from hell!

[Eliyahuw]

The will of God is that none should perish in the flames of hell.

But your contradicting Romans 10:13 with Acts 22:16.

Mat 7:21 doesn't say salvation is base on baptism. it says that not everyone will accept christ.

This still is not sinking in. Look at these two scriptures you listed -

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Do you see how they both use "call(ing) on the name of the Lord"? Thy DO NOT contradict each other. They support each other. One verse couple's it with baptism. Just because the other one doesn't mention it does not mean that it is of no importance. This is what I meant in putting the scriptures together.

What Mat. 7:21 says is that not every on that says unto him "Lord, Lord" will enter into heaven, not what you said in that not everyone will except Christ. The purpose of that passage is to let us know it takes more than just belief in God and doing works in his name. I takes an actual obedience to the gospel of Christ. That is what it means in "doing the will of the Father".

Even though we are save by grace through our faith Christianity and salvation does not stop there. We must also do everything that is required of us By God and Christ and that entails everything that we see written from Mat.- Rev.

What you are doing is taking some of the verses that don't mention baptism and stating that because they don't have the word in it that it isn't needed, but there are specific verses that do tell us that it is needed and commanded.

You said that baptism is not needed for salvation and that we can go to heaven without it. If people never get baptized then how do you explain this verse -

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

If I put on Christ through baptism then does that mean that if I don't get baptized I don't put him on?

Romans 6:4-5 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

If we are not baptized we are not buried with him into his death we will NOT be raised together in the likeness of his resurrection. How do you explain that if we don't have to be baptized?

You know, your ignoring that were baptised in christ when we are saved. we then go out and are baptized by water as a symbol of christs DBR. The baptism by fire, is the putting on Christ, not the baptism by water. BBW is only a symbol of our commitment to christ.

I belive it was a group of people that were not baptized at all, they were saved and living for christ they were saved and NOT BAPTISED.

[Eliyahuw]

1 John 5:6-8 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Spirit is God, he is always the spirit, The water is the holy spirit, the HS washes us upon salvation as he enters us and the blood is Christ.

Has nothing to do with water baptism. It has everything to do with salvation and also the trinity.

Christ came by water and blood because the blood is supposed to be in the waters of baptism.

Where in the bible does it say the blood is in the water??Sorry but i don't read that anywhere!

You keep saying we have to be washed by water cause christs blood wsa shed 2000 years ago and can't be used today, but no one was ever literally washed in his blood!

That is how we reach the blood of Christ. We know that the blood of Christ cleanses us from our sin and we see also that when we are buried in baptism our old man of sin is taken away. Like I have said, put them together.

Your theory has a major hole in it. the theif on the cross wsn't baptized yet he went to heaven with christ.

Another hole in your theory, all those who died prior to christs death burial and resurrection were not baptized either.

[Eliyahuw]

1 John 5:6-8 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

[Eliyahuw]

Looks like you quoted 3 separate baptisms.

there are three separate baptisms! there is the baptism the jews practiced, the one thta john the baptist baptized chrsit with to fulfill the law and initiate christs ministry and his entry into the priesthood as required byjewish law, then there is baptism by fire as mentioned by john the baptist which is baptism of the holy spirit that happens upon salvation, and then theres water baptism that was practiced and started after christ ascended into heaven.

Now if baptism by water was a requirement for salvation, then your saying all those people who recieved christ, after his death burial and resurrection, weren't saved, and i can pretty much guarantee by the odds and statistics that many of those people that turned to christ but weren't baptized because it wasn't even being done, died. your theory would condemn them to hell.

[Thaddaeus]

Eliyahuw,

Were talking about salvation aren't we, i do know how to apply the scripture. it is not the wrong application. salvation is all about grace! without it we have no hope of being saved.

We are ONLY speaking of soul salvation, our personal, individual salvation. We are not speaking of the salvation Christ did for mankind. Christ removed death, removed the judgement of death against all of mankind because of Adam. Then He also atoned for the sins of the world. There are not specifics here.

To say that Christ died for you, does not differentiate from anyone else that ever lived in this world. Christ overcame death for every human being. That is the reason and purpose of the Incarnation. God assuming our human natures to redeem them, to restore them to life, so that we might be able to get on with the purpose of why God created us in the first place. Union with Him.

No one is saying it is not of Grace. We do absolutely nothing without it. We live, move and have our being from Christ. Grace is really not even in the equation since it is a given just because we are creatures period.

And how is Rom 11:5 and 6 not relevant. It shows that no works can possibly save us. were saved only by the Grace of God. NOT BY WORKS.

but it is speaking ONLY of Life. It is ONLY speaking of the Work of Christ overcoming death by His resurrection. Do you think man could do this even if he did live a perfect life? By what means can man, a mortal being, dead, restore life to himself? Why even bring in the works issue. It is simply not germaine to the issue.

What you are totally forgetting is what we fell from. We were created for a purpose that still is in existance whether the fall occured or if it had never occured. Adam was working out his salvation prior to the fall. He was under a commandment to be obedient or not to be. He could have become immortal or mortal. We know what happened. Thus man lost the ability to become immortal. ONLY the creator, could also be the restorer of life. This is what the texts are clearly saying that I used before. Man is not even in the equation relative to the Work of Christ on the Cross. But the work for which we were created is in full force BECAUSE we were redeemed, restored to life. We actually have an obligation to fulfill that created mandate or to suffer the consequences.

This concept of salvation based on works, says that christ's sacrifice was meaningless!

Just the opposite. It is the energizer of the whole concept. It puts the universe back in a correct relationship with God so that man can be in union but do it freely of his own choice. A choice that He will be held accountable for at the judgement. It is meaningless and fruitless if man thinks he could ever accomplish what Christ did for mankind.

IT says that christ hasn't got the power to save us, it says God is falllible! it says God cannot save us without us working for it.

this statement is due to your misunderstanding and misapplication of what we spoke of earlier. God saved every single human being. How complete could that even be. He permitted not a person to be destroyed by death. He defeated death and Satan with His death and resurrection.

But God did not create us perfect, not even Adam. He was created good and was required to work with God, to bring the created order as a living sacrifice to God. The fall interrupted that possibility. Man could not restore himself, so Christ was needed to restore mankind to the former capability and ability with which he was created to work with God, freely. That is what Christ did, made it possible for each and every person to save his own soul. To freely work with God in this created order so that in the end, God can be all in all.

it says God is falllible! it says God cannot save us without us working for it.

Only in your misunderstanding. God is simply doing what was planned when Adam sinned and plunged the world into death and sin. Christ redeemed us so we as humans could do what Adam was supposed to do. We were sovereignly created to do that very work with God. So, lets get on with it.

That is a lie straight from hell!

A total misunderstanding of scripture and a direct denial of your own existance and purpose as a human being, a creature of God created in His very own Image to be freely in union with Him.

[Eliyahuw]

Eliyahuw,

Were talking about salvation aren't we, i do know how to apply the scripture. it is not the wrong application. salvation is all about grace! without it we have no hope of being saved.

We are ONLY speaking of soul salvation, our personal, individual salvation. We are not speaking of the salvation Christ did for mankind. Christ removed death, removed the judgement of death against all of mankind because of Adam. Then He also atoned for the sins of the world. There are not specifics here.

so now your saying theres two salvations. jeesze yall are screwed up!

And how is Rom 11:5 and 6 not relevant. It shows that no works can possibly save us. were saved only by the Grace of God. NOT BY WORKS.

Man is not even in the equation relative to the Work of Christ on the Cross. But the work for which we were created is in full force BECAUSE we were redeemed, restored to life. We actually have an obligation to fulfill that created mandate or to suffer the consequences.

[Thaddaeus]

Eliyahuw,

so now your saying theres two salvations. jeesze yall are screwed up!

Your view denies the creation and purpose of man. If the fall had not even occured, you and I would have had to work with God to attain immortality. That is why it is referencing Adam. Adam and all men that would come into this world were created for a purpose. We were to glorify God by working with Him in this Universe. Man was not created perfect, that is immortal. If he had been, sin would have have been impossible and man's fall would not have occured. It occured because God gave man a choice. Adam made his choice. He disobeyed the commandment and suffered death. Death is the separation of body and soul. It is the end of the human being as he was created to be, eternal and in union with God.

This work is the work of the salvation of our souls, the work we were created as human beings to perform. The fall has nothing to do with the fact we were created to this. The fall precluded this from ever happening. Thus the need for the salvation from that fall. The fall needed to be corrected, man needed life. Christ redeemed mankind from death as well as atoned, propitiated the sins of the world. Man has nothing to to with this redemptive work. He cannot even deny it. It is objective.

That is what you are confusing about salvation. The ultimate goal of God is that man be able to fulfil his created mandate of being in communion and union with God. God desires that all men be in union, but God does not compel man to be in union. If this were so, then Adam would not have been permitted to fall from that position. We have the very same commandment and obligation to fulful, ONLY because Christ redeemed us from the fall, the salvation of mankind. Man is totally incapable of doing it. These two aspects you conflate which is causing your total misunderstanding and total misapplication of scripture.

You have yet to show any texts that refute what I am saying. Refute Rom 11:32, or Rom 5:18-19, or I Cor 15:20-22, Col 1:15-20, and I could give you more.

Christ did not come to overturn the sovereign will of God in creating us in His Image, free, communal and unique persons. He came to overcome the fall. To give mankind life, restored from death. He atoned for the sins of the world so that man, even in this life can have fellowship with Him, can be in union with Him through repentance and confession of ones sins. Sin and God do not mix, and all beleivers sin and are in need of this saving blood through confession.

What in the world has that got to do with being saved by Grace and not by works. Christ said, For ye are saved by Grace, through faith....... NOT OF WORKS, because if it were mans doing, they would boast that they made it to heaven on their own.

Yes, I have been saying that also in trying to show that it is irrelevant to believers. You are trying to apply the works believers were created to do, as works that might somehow save mankind and grant life. All of mankind was saved by Grace and we are saved by Grace through faith as well. It is all Grace, Grace is a given. Man does not exist outside of the Grace of God. So we don't need to add it to anything, it is always there.

I don't know about you but i;ll take jesus christs words and promise before i'll believe your interpretation. Man you guys take something so simple and turn it into something that no one in their right mind would even think of doing! What part of its a gift of God doesn't anyone here understand!??

that's because you don't understand why you are even in existance apparently. You want God to deny the reason he created man, you personally. You have God saving us from His own sovereign will, rather than the fall, the condemnation to death by Adam. We are being saved from Adam, if you will, by Christ. Something man cannot do. But man surely can perform that which he was created to do. Once we are givne life, an eternal quality, we can again join with God, even in this life and begin that eternal existance with Him. I cannot explain it more simply than that. You have muddled everything into a total mess.

A GiFT = FREELY given, nothing owed in return! No strings attached!

And all men were given that Gift. We believe that Christ saved us and faith in Christ ushers us into His Kingdom, the union for which we were created, to be a free choice of man. We enter freely, we can leave freely. We don't need to accept that gift and many men do not. But they suffer the consequences of that failure to join with God as we were created.

No its not. Its spitting in christs face! Seems like he didn't get enough from the jews back when he was crucified.

If anyone is spitting in His face, it would be your view. You deny that we are even created for a purpose, then you want Christ to replace that purpose and do your work for you. Many protestants also deny that Christ actually saved all of mankind from the fall. That is really spitting in His face and showing that God is incapable of saving His own creatures.

I never said man accomplished anything and if he thinks works is going to get him to heaven he will most assureadly bust hell wide open!

that is the problem. Man does not and cannot save himself from the fall. Man cannot give himself life, nor atone for his own sins.

However, man was created to work with God in the created order. That is what we were restored to do, and it is all about works. We are saved through faith, but works is the evidence of that faith. Without either one it is all useless and void. You must have both to inherit the eternal Kingdom with Christ.

I don't misunderstand a thing! I understand and KNOW what i am talking about. I have it on better authority than you, i get it straight from the HS.

You may not misunderstand what you believe, but what you believe has never seen the light of day in the history of Christianity. It is a direct denial of the Incarnation, of the purpose of man's very creation. You have given no text that affirms what you believe that would be scriptural as having always been believed from the beginning. I suggest you test the spirits.

Sorry but no he didn't! He presented the opportunity for man to be saved. He provided the scapegoat!

But that doesn't mean man is saved.

Now you say He gave man an opportunity. You have been categorically stating that man could not save himself. Any works is worthless, only Christ can save man.

Then I tell you, give you all the texts that clearly state that Christ saved all of mankind form the fall. Christ conquered death for all, you deny it. Talk about being confused.

Ok NOW your saying God created sin, and created inperfection. Thats pretty blasphemous! Your saying God is imperfect!

Good is not imperfection. Man was created to attain perfection with God. The same as we are now IN Christ. We are to be conformed to His Image, to become the Mind of Christ. To share in His divine nature. We are working towards righteousness fully, we will never attain it, but it nevertheless is a requirement. We are commanded to be perfect as Christ is perfect. You need to study the story of creation first, then you might understand man's created purpose and why the fall precluded its completion.

You then might also understand the fall and why Christ is the ONLY solution for the fall, not for man's created purpose.

??? What??? what has adam got to do with the statement? wht you said says God is fallible.

Adam has everything to do with it. He was created for a purpose, which got short circuited due to the fall. Christ corrected the fall, so we could do what Adam was doing as a human being, working with God, to be in union with God. Commune with Him. That is what we fell from, it is not the fall.

How does that make God fallible when He saved every single human being from that fall. You don't even believe that as you have stated, not because you actually don't but you don't understand the difference. You deny Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, which is essence is denying the Incarnation.

IF God cannot save us without us without us doing works, then quite frankly he isn't powerful enough or God enough to save anyone.

We don't need works to save us from the fall, which is what Christ did for us. How many times must one say it. Man has nothing to contribute to the salvation from the fall.

However, living up to the purpose of our being created is what Christ restored man to, and that is all works. The salvation of ones individual soul, is between God and man. It is the reason we wre created and would be doing even if the fall had never occured.

PLUS it makes him a liar. he said, that its by grace, through faith and not of works.

yes, but this is applicable to Christ's work, not our created purpose. Keep them separated. What man could not do, but also what man was created to do. Huge difference.