Catholicism Examined

[serotta]

Mcm42:

On what? not on this issue

Yeah, I guess that was a little open-ended wasn't it? Yes, I meant just that one statement of Wesley's. Thanks

[Guest mcm42]

yep i agree

I love the book of james... hey wait

Jamie... James ( a little similarity there I think)

(Jamie Mcmurray is a Nascar driver for those who don't get that)

[Douay]

I DON'T KNOW OF ANYBODY EVER SAYING THAT THEY BELIEVE IN "WORKS SALVATION". LOSE THE OBSESSION PEOPLE, IT'S NOT HEALTHY.

[serotta]

I'm sorry Douay, I didn't quite catch that. Could you repeat that?

I DON'T KNOW OF ANYBODY EVER SAYING THAT THEY BELIEVE IN "WORKS SALVATION". LOSE THE OBSESSION PEOPLE, IT'S NOT HEALTHY.

okay, that's what I thought you said. Thanks.

[Douay]

Serotta- thanks

Ronald- I'll take a look at that passage. I didn't know it was used twice in the Bible.

[RGR]

Ronald wrote:

When you look at the verse in context with other verses, it is talking to believers in general, not just Peter.

Actually, both of you are correct. In Mat 16:19 that is spoken directly to Peter, but then in Mat 18:18 it is directed to all the disciples.

Infallibility? Would everyone agree that God is infallible? And there have been times when all of us would agree that humans have also been infallible; ex/ those that were inspired by God to write the books of the Bible. Correct? So if one is doing something purely as inspired by God, then that person at that time would be considered infallible, correct?

Well, yes, anyone who would question the infallibility of God would, in my mind, not be a Christian. However, I do disagree with the idea of a man being infallible. There are certainly prophets of old that spoke an infallible message, but they themselves were very much fallible, but CHOSE to speak as the Holy Spirit spoke to them. The message was infallible, but they were not.

[stevehut]

I DON'T KNOW OF ANYBODY EVER SAYING THAT THEY BELIEVE IN "WORKS SALVATION". LOSE THE OBSESSION PEOPLE, IT'S NOT HEALTHY.

Works salvation? Try the Catholic Catechism.

Indulgences. Penance. Baptism of unbelievers. Nothing new here!

[stevehut]

If anyone has a scripture showing that baptism is to be done by immersion please produce it.

There are several instances in the where it says they went down into the water, and they came up out of the water.

John the Baptist chose a particular place to do his baptizing, because it had plenty of water. If you could be baptized by sprinkling, who go all the way to the river? Just bring a bucket.

And, of course, the Greek baptidzo literally means to immerse in water. Other traditions developed later, but the meaning of the word remains.

[stevehut]

The Church says that if you spend 15 minutes per day reading the Bible then you recieve an indulgence(lessening of the time spent in Purgatory) of 300(?) days.

Anyone know where this teaching came from? I'd be interested to know.

[mobile21]

Christ gave infallibility to one Church only and that's the only biblical hard fact.

Infallibility is in the Bible? Please show me where.

I quote myself here:

"Infallibility is a concept that contains several presumptions from the Scripture just like the concept of trinity or the concept of orginal sin do. Those presumptions have the common element of the presence of God in the Church and among its members.

We do know that Christ founded a Church that would never be defeated (Matt 16:18) and therefore that it would last until His second coming (Matt 28:20) so the Bible establishes God is with the Church always. Now, because of Acts 2:1-4 we know that the Holy Spirit (3rd person of the Holy Trinity) inspires and guides the Church that remains united in the name of Jesus Christ (Matt 18:20).

This means that if Jesus Christ is truth (Jn 14:6) and He sent the Holy Spirit to the Church (Jn 14:26) so the truth would be in the Church (Jn 16:13) then, the conclusion is not only that the Church will last because Jesus Christ founded it but that it is infallible (hence, free from error) too.

That's why the Church had the authority to declare that what we know as the Bible is the infallible Word of God in the year 397 during the Council of Hippo."