Is Salvation Predestined??

[Guest mcm42]

God does not pre-elect only certain individuals to be saved, or else the Bible is rendered absolute folly.

O.K. So be it.. how then will you reconcile Romans 9? Either Romans 9 should be cast away, if your statement is true, or it must be reconciled to this belief, which literally says the exact opposite of Romans 9.

I fall on this one Scripture only because it speaks so explicitly on the issue. Other verses hint to it, but none of them so describes God's choosing and election in the way Romans 9 does.

If you hold the above belief, you have Romans 9 to deal with, I don't see how you can reconcile the two.

HOwever, if you believe that God does elect, you can see how safe we are in his love and mercy, and how just he is to condemn us to hell if he so chooses, He owes you nothing, He owes me nothing, that is why His grace is so powerful, that while we were dead, sinful, and totally incapable, God chose us for salvation, that He may be Glorified.

[Guest LadyC]

i've already answered your question regarding romans 9. perhaps you forgot. i'm not sure if it was in this thread or another one, but i distinctly recall answering you.

how do YOU reconcile the scriptures i just provided? those are only a few of the ones i could post.

HOwever, if you believe that God does elect, you can see how safe we are in his love and mercy,

yes, and i can see how absolutely UNSAFE those that God does not elect, because of his cruel and unmerciful, demented, vindictive, evilness.

sorry, your argument just does not make sense. you're relying on taking one scripture out of context.

[Guest mcm42]

yes, and i can see how absolutely UNSAFE those that God does not elect, because of his cruel and unmerciful, demented, vindictive, evilness.

sorry, your argument just does not make sense. you're relying on taking one scripture out of context.

how is it that God is cruel, unmerciful, demented, vindictive, and evil if he sends an already hell-bound person to Hell? Do you and I deserve something from God? Is it not us who have wronged Him?

They are Unsafe because of their sin, not because of their non-election or election. Just because God chooses to have mercy on one, and not another does that make him unfair?

NO! Unfair would be giving any of us the grace He gives! Fair is sending us all to hell for our due punishment. Don't pretend man is deserving of any kind of Chances...

As far as Romans Nine... your answer was severely inadequate, and you answered much like this "pending further study of Romans 9"... So I'm still waiting...

as for your verses...

therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. - No one will choose life unless God gives them that ability. Because we are totally sinful we are unable on our own...

choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve- If God does not influence this decisions all of mankind would turn away from God and Choose idols.

'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live- They were desperatly wicked, and need I remind you that God here is intervening in their lives... He is speaking to them, making His will occur, He knows that they will not choose him, and have not chosen him (obviously to this point)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth- God's desire and decree are often not the same... for we know that not all come to salvation... in fact all turned away from Him in sin to start with... since none came to him... He elects some for his own purposes, to glorify himself (and shall the clay say to the potter Why have you made me this way cf. Romans 9)

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance- again he longs for all to come, but not all do, in fact none do... that is why he must elect, for we are desperately sinful and wicked, and we need His spirit to allow us to hear his voice and come to him. (see scriptures above in this post cf John 6 and 10)

Hope this helps you understand my side...

[Guest LadyC]

how is it that God is cruel, unmerciful, demented, vindictive, and evil if he sends an already hell-bound person to Hell? Do you and I deserve something from God? Is it not us who have wronged Him?

what we deserve is for God to be HONEST. you apparently did not catch the sarcasm in my words. God is NOT cruel and unmerciful, demented and vindictive. but that's exactly how predestination portrays Him.... as just the master of mind games.

your response is inadequate, mine was not, and i'll explain why. we are to be Berean in our study of the scriptures. that means we must not take one passage and determine what its context is, without studying ALL of what scripture has to say and making sure that the one passage isn't referring to a specific circumstance.

the test is this. if the context you place on a scriptural passage contradicts the rest of what scripture has to say, then it isn't in context. to take romans 9, which is referring to a set of twins and their purpose in God's creation, and apply it to all of humanity, renders so many other scriptures invalid that it boggles the mind.

i'm left to wonder, considering your response on the other thread and in this one, are you here to study God's word and understand it better, or to prove that you are right?

as for me, i'm here to understand God's word better, which is why i did further study on the passage you lay your entire doctrine on, comparitively with the rest of scripture. i'm not here to prove you wrong, i'm here to share what i have learned in my study.

for the record, i have no need to have you teach me "how to handle the other scriptures" as you offered to do in the other thread. God is sufficient. He doesn't teach me how to "handle" scriptures, He teaches me how to understand Him better THROUGH the scriptures.

[serotta]

In addition to what Lady C said, Romans 9:30 puts it in proper context: that jews could not secure "righteousness" through the law, while Gentiles, without any knowledge of the Law, achieved righteousness through faith in Christ. Anyone can secure righteousness by accepting Christ through faith.

[Guest mcm42]

you apparently did not catch the sarcasm in my words. God is NOT cruel and unmerciful, demented and vindictive. but that's exactly how predestination portrays Him

Yes, I did catch the sarcasm, that is why I placed it within my beliefs. Meaning that in the election process God is not what you said (whether it be sarcastic or not). I was simply showing you how God is still Loving, and Still Just within my belief.

for the record, i have no need to have you teach me "how to handle the other scriptures" as you offered to do in the other thread.

I'm not offering to "teach you" I'm offering to show you what God has shown me. I'm only writing so that others can see my side, and only reading so I can see theirs.

i'm left to wonder, considering your response on the other thread and in this one, are you here to study God's word and understand it better, or to prove that you are right?

It's not for you to wonder why I am or am not here. As stated above I'm here to share my view of what God has shown mean, and to glean what God has shown to others.

To be right or wrong on worthy is of no value, to me or anyone else, it will be the least of things in the last days, I'm sure you will agree.

I have no quarrel with you, or your beliefs. You may hold to what you will, I don't seek to change you, only to understand where your coming from. I don't call your belief unbiblical, or wrong, nor do I hint in anyway that it makes God anything.

I share my side, and question yours, to simply see how you deal, handle etc. other passages.

If my study is inadequate, then that is for you to judge for yourself. But I am convinced in heart that God does the Choosing, I truly believe this lines up with the Bibles "full Context". Again, I only sight Romans 9 because it is the clearest example!

I don't agree the Romans 9 is only speaking of the chooing of Israel. It is showing how not only Israel is God's Chosen.

Verse 30-the end shows how God's Chosen have faith for those who have faith are descendants of Israel not those of the flesh.

Notice in verse 24 the Gentiles are Chosen first "even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles"

Paul is showing how the Gentiles are too called for Christ. This is certainly NOT a scripture simply talking about the choosing done in the Old Testament. Because Paul refers, in verse 23and 24 the electing is brought to us

"And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. "

Please study out the entire passage, it cleary shows that God has Mercy on whom has mercy (speaking of all men, not just Israel, ie. Pharaoh) and that he is the Potter and makes vessels, refering to all men.

As far as my view that faith determines destiny (hell/heaven). Faith is a gift from God, cf Eph 2:8,9 and we do not attain faith of our own works, but rather it is a gift given by God to those whom He has chosen.

Hence we are Children of abraham by faith Gal 3:7 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham"

That is my view.

[Guest LadyC]

and your view, and the context you place on that scriptural passage, contradicts other passages throughout the Bible. God doesn't contradict Himself.

[Guest mcm42]

and your view, and the context you place on that scriptural passage, contradicts other passages throughout the Bible. God doesn't contradict Himself.

And I would say the same about your belief

At least we can agree on this, we don't agree

May God bless your study

[Work in Progress]

yes, and i can see how absolutely UNSAFE those that God does not elect, because of his cruel and unmerciful, demented, vindictive, evilness.

sorry, your argument just does not make sense. you're relying on taking one scripture out of context.

how is it that God is cruel, unmerciful, demented, vindictive, and evil if he sends an already hell-bound person to Hell? Do you and I deserve something from God? Is it not us who have wronged Him?

They are Unsafe because of their sin, not because of their non-election or election. Just because God chooses to have mercy on one, and not another does that make him unfair?

NO! Unfair would be giving any of us the grace He gives! Fair is sending us all to hell for our due punishment. Don't pretend man is deserving of any kind of Chances...

As far as Romans Nine... your answer was severely inadequate, and you answered much like this "pending further study of Romans 9"... So I'm still waiting...

as for your verses...

therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. - No one will choose life unless God gives them that ability. Because we are totally sinful we are unable on our own...

choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve- If God does not influence this decisions all of mankind would turn away from God and Choose idols.

'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live- They were desperatly wicked, and need I remind you that God here is intervening in their lives... He is speaking to them, making His will occur, He knows that they will not choose him, and have not chosen him (obviously to this point)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth- God's desire and decree are often not the same... for we know that not all come to salvation... in fact all turned away from Him in sin to start with... since none came to him... He elects some for his own purposes, to glorify himself (and shall the clay say to the potter Why have you made me this way cf. Romans 9)

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance- again he longs for all to come, but not all do, in fact none do... that is why he must elect, for we are desperately sinful and wicked, and we need His spirit to allow us to hear his voice and come to him. (see scriptures above in this post cf John 6 and 10)

Hope this helps you understand my side...

mcm, excellent post. Excellent points. So true. (Can you tell I loved your post? lol)

Some of the things I am reading here remind me so much of me, it's amazing how, word for word, they sound just like I did. Don't bang your head against a wall - God is revealing. Give it time.

[Guest mcm42]

thanks work in progress, it's quite a joy when you post, it's refreshing to read about encouragement, as apposed to controversy.

Thanks again for the encouragement :t:

May God Bless you and your study of His Word