Is Salvation Predestined??

[Catsmeow]

The only conclusion I can come to is this:

*I won't know the whole truth until I die and go to heaven.

*The Lord will reveal His truth to us someday because now we see in part.

*I'm so glad that He offered me His grace!

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you all,

Ge

[Catsmeow]

I didn't understand that last part, Dave...

[Guest fishingpenguin]

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Then therefore, since some have perished, that makes God and His plan a failure, right? Not my God.

Are you disagreeing with the verse or with me? Do you think that God wants people to perish?

Why does it make God and his plan a failure if some reject God. The scripture says that he is patient and wants everyone to come to repentance. If everyone doesn't accept God gift of grace and love, that doesn't make Him a failure. Obviously you can't deny that God wants everyone to come to repentance. If God picks out who goes to heaven and people who aren't picked have no chance at going to heaven, then how does that go with this verse?

Also look at Romans 2:11

"For God does not show favoritism."

Putting these verses together, i think it is clear that God wants everyone to come to repentance and doesn't favor any over others.

God hasn't chosen a select few, instead he is waiting patiently, in the ohpe that everyone will come to repentance. If God wants everyone to come to repentance, he wouldn't just pick and choose who gets to go to heaven, and he wouldn't be waiting around for people to come to repentance.

Our God is not a defeated God, wringing His hands, shaking his head waiting and wondering and begging people to come to Him.

Who said he was? The outcome is already shown (Revelations) and we know that God will win. We simply have to make the choice to be on the winning side.

The bottom line, as I see it, is how we view the Almighty Sovereign God. Subject to man, or subject only to Himself? 

In what way is saying that God lets man decide whether he wants to accept God grace and spend eternity with Him making God subject to man?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

This thread seems to keep going round and round. I haven't even read one post of it and did not want to get into a Calvinist/Arminian debate, but I throw this out for your consideration.

In the sense that God has foreknowledge of everything up to the very end, the scriptures say that indeed He did "predestine us":

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So we that have been "predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God" have also been written in the "Lamb's Book of Life":

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now having said all that, can anyone tell me if they have SEEN THEIRS OR MY NAME written in the Lamb's Book of Life. I MEAN PHYSICALLY SEEN IT WITH YOUR OWN EYES! If you have, please let me know because I have searched and searched for that Book and I just can't seem to find it.

Since I can't find that book, I guess I will just have to lead my life in such a way that Christ is honored and God is glorified in all that I say and do, because if I don't, I will have run the race and still not reached my goal. I must trust in Him for HIS SALVATION, because I can't bribe Him enough to accept me into the Kingdom of God.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Catsmeow]

Great argument, DE...and very compelling. This is why my head swims on this issue...God so chose who would be His and as Sovereign, it's His right to do so.

But on the other hand, it seems He has deep love and compassion for humanity and desires all to be saved. So the paradox is why doesn't He save all mankind? Why not completely save every single one of them?

This is what I struggle with...I don't understand and probably won't until glory comes.

[Dad Ernie]

Great argument, DE...and very compelling. This is why my head swims on this issue...God so chose who would be His and as Sovereign, it's His right to do so.

But on the other hand, it seems He has deep love and compassion for humanity and desires all to be saved. So the paradox is why doesn't He save all mankind? Why not completely save every single one of them?

This is what I struggle with...I don't understand and probably won't until glory comes.

Greetings Catsmeow,

It is the heartiest desire of God that NONE should perish, but that all would come to the knowledge of His saving grace through Jesus Christ.

What you may be having trouble with is how God can be "Love", and still require "Justice". God literally went to the cross so that NO MAN would end up in the Lake of Fire. This was to satisfy the "Justice" part of Him. Remember the story of Abraham and Isaac? God replaced Isaac with another sacrifice, a substitutionary offer that ONLY GOD could have made, because His commandment teaches us that "for our own sin shall we die".

You tell your kids (if you have any?) that for wrongdoing, they will be punished. Punishment, of course, MUST fit the crime if you are to be "just". If you DO NOT punish them, I guarantee you that you will have some wild unruly kids on your hands. That is exactly what happened in Noah's day. God let their sins "reach unto the heavens" before He actually did something about it. Our "nature" is to "do evil continually". Every kind of evil - just look around the world today.

So for the ultimate of sins, say murder for instance, God's pronouncement is that "If a man shed's blood, so shall man shed his blood." For the ultimate rejection of God's Son, the ultimate price must ALSO be payed which is the destruction of BOTH body and soul in the Lake of Fire.

We are NOT robots, we all have to make a decision for or against Christ. So in order for God to be a JUST God, He has set up a system of rewards and punishments. I am sure you able to see that.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest fishingpenguin]

Excellent post DE. God, by nature, is HOLY and JUST. He cannot dwell with evil, which is why our sin seperates us from him (Isaiah 59:1-2). Thus the whole reason for Christ. Now by accepting him, we are JUSTIFIED. This way God has shown his love by giving everyone the option of eternal life with him, and he has kept his justice by demanding a sacrifice (because the wages of sin are death, Rom 6:23) and that sacrifice was Christ.

[Catsmeow]

DE: I know all you said, (*although you articulate beautifully, IMO). I am fully aware of the "justice" part of the equation..

The part I have confusion over is the "predestination" part, where some seem predestined for hell, while others are predestined for glory.

By your own quote from scripture...

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I understand justice and mercy...but it appears that God has pre-chosen who will be granted mercy and who will be cursed.

He said that He would harden whom He would harden and show mercy to whom He would show mercy...

That's His absolute sovereignty as God...I understand sovereignty. I just hate the thought of so many people created who may never hear the gospel or have the opportunity to be saved because of it. Does that make sense?

[Work in Progress]

Do you think that God wants people to perish?

I think that's a loaded question and I am trying hard not to rise to the bait. Like I said, I believe that God chose , before time as we know it, those who will be His. I don't know if he "passed over" others, or what, and don't dwell on it. I know that based on Scripture, and not on feelings of what my idea of fairness is. God is not accountable to me.

Why does it make God and his plan a failure if some reject God.

God is perfect. Man fell, and God had a perfect plan for man's salvation. If any man is not saved, the plan obviously failed if "he wanted all to come to that salvation". It really seems like an obvious conclusion, sorry. The God I worship is not a failure. I really can't say it any other way, or any more times. That is what I believe, after years of study, and it won't likely change, as I've already been on the other side. You must admit that it's hard to argue with one who feels they have been enlightened.

Obviously you can't deny that God wants everyone to come to repentance.

Yeah, I can and I do. Because the Scripture tells me differently. Only His chosen people are saved from eternity separated from Him. Why He chose them? What criteria? I have no idea and He doesn't say. I'd rather spend my time being grateful that He chose me and witnessing that incredible Grace to others, than worry about His reasons for whatever He has done.

Who said he was?

(defeated)

Like I said, to me, and many others, to claim that God wanted every soul to be saved, and put that with the fact that every soul hasn't and won't be saved, makes Him and His plan a failure. What is the alternative? A God who is NOT in control, wringing His hands and saying "oh me, oh my, I WISH they would listen...". Sorry, I can't hold that view of Soverign, Almighty God and don't think the Scriptures teach that view of Soverign, Almighty God. That's about the 10th time I've explained my view on it () and there really isn't anything more we can say to each other. I agree to disagree with your view of God.

In what way is saying that God lets man decide whether he wants to accept God grace and spend eternity with Him making God subject to man?

Yikes. Please read that again.

that God lets man decide

Man is not in control in any way, shape or form. Man is the creation, subject to the creator, and unable to do anything without the creator. Anything. He is dead without the Creator, who gives him life as He so chooses. Man isn't asleep , or comatose, he is dead.

This is all a re-hashing of both of our points. I've tried to agree to disagree. I'm sure you are as sincere in your beliefs as I am in mine. Let's leave it at that, shall we? I'm sure there is much more common ground we can find ourselves on.

Excellent post DE. God, by nature, is HOLY and JUST.

ICAM. However, let us be careful that we don't impose our definitions of "Holy and Just" onto God.

The part I have confusion over is the "predestination" part, where some seem predestined for hell, while others are predestined for glory.

Cat, that is a hard pill to swallow for many. It sure was for me. All I can say is that Scripture teaches it, and when I came to the realization that my ideas of "fair" mean absolutely nothing and that I don't dare hold God account for what He does did I fully understand. Also, there are some things we don't understand, and I had to come to the realization that it's okay not to understand everything. That is our human nature - to demand that we understand everything. God owes us nothing, and to make any demands of Him is arrogant. That was a BIG wake up call for me, to realize that.