Some questions about the Passion

[WayneB]

However, words do matter.

Absolutely! But the heart matters more. Ask for clarification before you jump my brother and read the words in context. I have the privilege of knowing my dear brother Dave and therefore know what he meant when he said "giving their lives to Christ". He did not mean as a sacrifice brother but as commitment...abiding, following, believing. You make very sound points...just don't fall into the legalism trap. We are all believers here and have insights to share. Human language is limited...finite... and that is why we have so many problems with translations and understanding one another on occasion. Asking for clarification is perfectly acceptable.

PM Dave if you want clarification.

Bless you,

Wayne

[serotta]

jmwhalen said:

Words/phrases like "Give your life to Christ.............. are works-based systems. We live in a "evil world" in which most promote a "works-gospel", and we Christians cannot promote a vague, unclear version of the same!

I don't think that that is necessarily true. "Giving your life to Christ" can be an act of submission, it is not a "work". I do agree that God's grace is freely given, and that it is through this grace, not by works, that we are saved. But we must also remember the parable of the vineyard (Mat 20). The owner of the vineyard paid the same wages to those that worked the full day as to those that worked very little. He did expect those he hired in the morning to give a full days work. So we are saved by grace, and after that we prove our faith by what we do.

[Guest LadyC]

jmwhalen said:

Words/phrases like "Give your life to Christ.............. are works-based systems. We live in a "evil world" in which most promote a "works-gospel", and we Christians cannot promote a vague, unclear version of the same!

I don't think that that is necessarily true. "Giving your life to Christ" can be an act of submission, it is not a "work". I do agree that God's grace is freely given, and that it is through this grace, not by works, that we are saved. But we must also remember the parable of the vineyard (Mat 20). The owner of the vineyard paid the same wages to those that worked the full day as to those that worked very little. He did expect those he hired in the morning to give a full days work. So we are saved by grace, and after that we prove our faith by what we do.

wouldn't salvation without submission to Christ be an oxymoron?

"The Sinner's Prayer", for eg., is not biblical, and does not save. It is a work:

now this would be a good example to expand upon. if a person says a 'sinners prayer' and is only going through the motions without sincerity, it is worthless. that person could have been reading a script, and probably was, and is not saved.

BUT

if the person sincerely meant the words he was repeating, and willingly submitted his life to Christ, then what human has the right, or the authority, to say God does not honor that person's prayer?

jim, anyone who makes that judgement is claiming to know the mind of God, and to be able to see into another person's heart, which none of us is capable of.

submission to Christ is evidence of our faith. it is not a 'work', it is a priviledge.

[nebula]

OK, for the women: "giving your life to Christ" = accepting His marital proposal and pledging yourself to Him.

For the men: "giving your life to Christ" = signing His contract, pledging your allegience to Him, joining His team, signing the "I agree to be adopted" papers (something like that...).

Does that work?

[nebula]

If anyone is interested, this web page gives many different reviews and perspectives on the movie. It's from The Christian Spotlight on the Movies web site.

Click here

[jmwhalen]

Wayne writes:

"Absolutely! But the heart matters more. Ask for clarification before you jump my brother and read the words in context. I have the privilege of knowing my dear brother Dave and therefore know what he meant when he said "giving their lives to Christ". He did not mean as a sacrifice brother but as commitment...abiding, following, believing. You make very sound points...just don't fall into the legalism trap. We are all believers here and have insights to share. Human language is limited...finite... and that is why we have so many problems with translations and understanding one another on occasion. Asking for clarification is perfectly acceptable."

________________________________________________________________________________

"... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." Psalms 138:2

Again, I repeat, we must not equate believing with "commitment, abiding, following".. If we do, we fall into the "Alice in Wonderland"syndrome, when the Queen said to Alice: "The word means what I say it means!" They are not equivalent. Again, do not confuse service with sonship. The biblical order is: Sonship, that service. Over and over scripture testifies that we are to believe the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4!

Repetition is one of the keys to learning. So:

Salvation is a free gift offered to everyone who believes the gospel of 1 Cor, 15:1-4(Romans 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9). In Romans 4:4-5 God clearly declares that faith, and faith alone, is His requirement for justification in His sight. Over 150 verses state that salvation from the debt and penalty of sin is the sole issue of placing one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour.

Giving one's life, heart("commitment") is not what faith in Christ is about. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving" God anything! Salvation is not my gift to God. Rather, it is the issue of receiving a gift from God. The issue in salvation is not what we give to Him, but what He gives to us-eternal life. The issue is not giving your life to Christ-it is Christ giving up His life as an atoning sacrifice for you. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving up your life", "surrendering your life".........-It was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave up His life and made full surrender when he yielded His life at Calvary. Again, when a lost person is told to "surrender his life, give his life to Jesus, commit his life to Jesus.........", this wrongly presumes that a person has something worthy to give(whether that is time, money, service......), and confuses SERVICE with SALVATION. It requires a "commitment" to serve Christ "up front" before salvation, and it presents a work-based performance system as a basis for acceptance by God.

Phrases such as "Give your heart to Jesus" may sound very romantic, but we are not saved by "falling in love with Jesus"-we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work at Calvary and His resurrection 3 days later. Giving one's heart, life(commitment) is an activity of service to the Lord, and and, as such, service and dedication is something the LORD appeals to believers to do(Romans 12:1-2, for eg.). But this is service from those who have become his own. The biblical order is Sonship, then service. Service, then sonship is a work-based performance system, as typified by the Roman Catholic Church, and "perverts the gospel of Christ"(Gal. 1:7).

I would ask again anyone that believes that I must make "commitment to follow Him" as a requirement for justification:

How much "commitment"? 40%? 50%? 89%? How much "abiding"? How much "following"?

Wayne, you should know Galatians! It is a stern, severe, corrective, and solemn message-there is no word of commendation, praise or thanksgiving. Paul's "heart" is laid bare here as the letters are peppered with deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his "fighting epistle"-he is on a war path, with no tolerance for legalism! It is the declaration of freedom from all types of legalism. While Romans was from Paul's "head" with its lawyerly, systematic treatise on justification by faith, and faith alone, Galatians was from his heart. It is the boldest, strongest declaration and DEFENSE(as is this post) of the doctrine of justification by faith in and out of the scriptures, and, as such, is God's polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian truth against any attack. That is, not only is a sinner saved by grace through faith(not commitment), but the saved sinner lives by grace(sanctification=commitment=the Christian "walk"). But we must not confuse justification(the declaration of righteousness) with sanctification! Yes, we are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presense of sin(glorification), but these are not equivalent biblical doctrines, and people are perverting the gospel of Christ by putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", i. e., they are placing sanctification=commitment=give your life to Christ in the wrong biblical order-as a "prerequisite" to justification, or as the means to justification. No, No, No!!

Legalism, biblically, is not debating over the importance of words, for the serpeant's first temptation of the woman was to cast doubt on God's words: "...Yea, hath God said,..." Gen 3:1 He doubted the "inspiration" of God's words. And so it is today. People reject God's word and rely on what others say, opinion, feelings.......instead of the Book. The T.V. guide and the phone book are consulted more often.

Legalism, biblically, entails adding some time of works-based system to the gospel Paul preached. The book of Galatians was Paul's letter to this cancer, even prompting Paul's placing a curse on such perversions of the gospel of Christ. I suggest all believers read Galatians Chapter slowly and prayerfully.

Serotta writes:

"I don't think that that is necessarily true. "Giving your life to Christ" can be an act of submission, it is not a "work". I do agree that God's grace is freely given, and that it is through this grace, not by works, that we are saved. But we must also remember the parable of the vineyard (Mat 20). The owner of the vineyard paid the same wages to those that worked the full day as to those that worked very little. He did expect those he hired in the morning to give a full days work. So we are saved by grace, and after that we prove our faith by what we do."

It is "an act of submission", but, again, this "begs the issue"-this is not the biblical directive to appropriating salvation-it focuses on what "you do" instead of what was already done for you 2000 years ago by the Lord Jesus Christ! The passage you cite has nothing to do with salvation-the context is servants and rewards from their master!

"if the person sincerely meant the words he was repeating, and willingly submitted his life to Christ, then what human has the right, or the authority, to say God does not honor that person's prayer?jim, anyone who makes that judgement is claiming to know the mind of God, and to be able to see into another person's heart, which none of us is capable of.submission to Christ is evidence of our faith. it is not a 'work', it is a priviledge.

Sincerity is not the issue! There are "a lot of" sincere Muslims, Catholics. Mormons, Hindus, Hari Krishna'.............who are sincere. But sincerity does not determine the truth of life and death issues, God's word does. And there is only one person ever who died on an altar made for criminals and lived to tell about it-the Lord Jesus Christ. Budhha, Ghandi, Joseph Smith are all dead. And there is no salvation outside of faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did by his death, burial, and resurrection 2000 years ago. Someone may be sincere, but they may be sincerely wrong. The Bible is the mind of God in written form. It is the final authority -I did not say I had the authority. Read the book for the authority!

It may be a privilidge of service, but do not confuse the western defintition of work with the biblical definition:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5

Again, you confuse "the Christian walk"=service=commitment= "evidence of faith"=SANCTIFICATION(to be set aside for God's use and service) with the doctrine of justification. Please read Romans and Galatians again. You say "we prove our faith by what we do". The Bible agrees, but we are not saved by "what we do". Again, you confuse "the fruit" of salvation=our walk=sanctification with the appropriation of it.

Now, I will present the gospel that saves again, "...for it is the power of God unto salvation...."(Romans 1:16), and "...it is hid to them that are lost"(2 Cor, 4:3);

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen

[WayneB]

You twist words John. Your choice. I will not join in.

Bless you,

Wayne

EDIT ----

John, I went and reread your post a couple of times and you are correct. I cannot find anything I disagree with. I tried...hard! It is obvious, though, that I (and all others) will have to be very careful in the words we choose when discussing any topic with you. Your rebuke is accepted but your approach should be reconsidered. I am sure that if you prayed on the matter, you would realize that none of us are advocating a works based theology. We are saved (and sanctified) by God's grace and His grace alone. Sonship, though, results in a new branch in the vine, does it not? [John 15] OK, "abiding", "comittment" and "following" could be understood as works but they weren't meant that way...and I think you know that. They were meant to convey a decision...a decision to believe. Man, I hope this doesn't lead to another rebuke. You do believe in choice, don't you?

Regardless, technically you are correct. Just as the jailer asked Silas and Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" and they replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved ---you and your household." That's it!

Maybe if you took a more gentler approach folks wouldn't get defensive with you. You can stand for the Truth and still make friends. Regardless, your choice brother. The shame is that we believe the same things from what I can see so far. Ain't that a kick? I'm not use to debating with folks I agree with! Where we differ is in our approach.

I still can appreciate your tenacity even if you are a bit caustic. You aren't a lawyer by chance, are you?

[jmwhalen]

'You twist words John. Your choice. I will not join in.'

I am not twisting words-I "reasoned out of the scriptures" as we are all charged to do. I will continue to defend the gospel Paul preached( Paul refers to as"my gospel"), whether I have to do it alone or not. I will not allow this "lordship salvation", "another gospel", to pervert the gospel of Christ. The gospel is so simple-it is "5th grade english". But human nature, and the pride that is inherant in all of us, always seeks to add to the "simplicity which is in Christ", whether that be by "an altar call", "walking the aisle", "giving your life to Christ"(no one's life is their's to give, by the way)........... I am sorry, Wayne, that you do not want to "join in" in defense of the gospel, for the "furtherance of the gospel". I may be the most unpopularperson on this board, but my reputation is not important to me or the LORD-people's eternal destinies are.

Please tell me which words I twisted-I quoted scripture, not "what I think"/"in my opinion".

In Christ, John

[jesusson]

but my reputation is not important to me or the LORD-people's eternal destinies are.

AMEN Jim

[WayneB]

I am sorry, Wayne, that you do not want to "join in" in defense of the gospel, for the "furtherance of the gospel". I may be the most unpopularperson on this board, but my reputation is not important to me or the LORD-people's eternal destinies are.

There you go again brother.

You accuse me of not wanting to "'join in' in defense of the Gospel, for the 'futherance of the Gospel'". What qualifies you to make such a statement? You don't know what I do...you don't because you never asked! Who are you to judge? Please brother...I will watch my words more closely but you should as well! Even Paul, the most unpopular apostle of all, spoke to his brethern with kinder words. I took your correction with grace I think. You need to go to the Lord in prayer and seek His word on this matter. I am beginning to believe that you thrive on strife and being unpopular.

Your brother in Christ,

Wayne