An Open Letter to Mel

[nebula]

Because whenever you point your finger at someone, you have three fingers pointing back at you.

[Guest LCPGUY]

There's no doubt about that whatsoever that he did die and it's very clear in the Bible how it happened and the Bible does place the blame.

I have asked before for someone to post the scriptures where they say the Jews are to blame. Unless I missed the post, I have not seen a reply.

Again, for the umpteenth time, Acts 4:27-28 make it perfectly clear we were all responsible (Jews, Romans, Gentiles, Herod) to carry out what had been purposed by God.

I must be denser than I ever thought, but could someone tell my why this witch-hunt to pin blame on a certain people, i.e., the Jews?

Very curious...

John

[Guest idolsmasher]

I have asked before for someone to post the scriptures where they say the Jews are to blame.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Now, are these verses in error? If so, by what authority are they proven wrong?

The point isn't so much to point the finger as it is to admit who the Bible says is responsible and why people who claim to take the Bible literally can't just admit it. People will hold you to the word up and down and quite fiercly over much lesser matters, but on this one they quite clearly are afraid of what the Bible says. I wanna know why!!! Because of anti-semetism? Then the Bible is anti-semetic! Isn't that where this whole line of reasoning will eventually lead, to an attack on the crucifixtion story of the Bible as fictional and hateful instead of the historical truth?

[Guest yod]

are ya'll picking on my buddy???

David Stern has a "jewish" new Testament (aren't they all jewish?) which renders the word "jew" as "judeans" almost every time it speaks about "them"..

It is very true that Caiphus initiated the death of Yeshua. Yes, Herod & Pilate were also guilty but nothing would have been done without Caiphus getting the ball rolling. I am of the opinion that he did it at night because even most of the Pharisees would have not approved of ANYONE being handed over to the Romans! Especially on the Passover.

It's one thing to have a religious disagreement and quite another to have someone killed for disagreeing.

Here are the expanded verses where Idolsmasher quotes from;

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Judeans,

15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,

16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

"has come upon them...."

This indicates that there were specific people who had received a specific punishment already.

Caiphus was trying to hold on to his power. He knew that Yeshua was going to claim being Messiah or be anointed by the people because they shouted "Hoshianna!" when He rode down the side of the Mount of Olives.

If this had happened during the Passover, Jerusalem would be a Roman bloodbath. He had mentioned this plan already;

John 11

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,

50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish."

51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,

There had been many "messiahs" coming up in Judea, Samaria, and the Galilee in those days. Whenever they would make the claim, Rome would move in and wipe out entire villages of people. They would crucify an entire city on the side of a main road so passers-by would know better than to repeat the same mistake.

So this wasn't just a religious dispute. It was more a political calculation designed to save Caiphus' position and the lives of jews who would die in an insurrection. That's why Barabbas was chosen for comparison....he was a rebel against Rome.

And the charge Rome brought against Yeshua? "King of the Jews"

[nebula]

I wanna know why

Because pride is a very tricky, very powerful, and very dangerous thing.

Pride is more interested in confronting the sin of others than in confronting your own sin. Pride uses uses the rags of others to cover the fact that you have rags yourself.

If I err, may I err in sharing the guilt of others rather than to err in denying the guilt I am a part of.

The High Priest offered up the Sacrifice that bore the sin I have committed. For that very reason, the blood of the Sacrifice is on my hands.

That is all that matters.

[WayneB]

Because whenever you point your finger at someone, you have three fingers pointing back at you.

Yup!

[Guest idolsmasher]

Joh

[Guest idolsmasher]

Because whenever you point your finger at someone, you have three fingers pointing back at you.

Ha ha ha! Remember you said that Neb! :oww:

[Guest shiloh357]

I think that one must use just good ole common sense. Historically there were Jews (mostly the leaders and their disciples) who called for Jesus death. That is fact. It is another thing altogether to say that they bear the lion's share of the blame. The Jews did not crucify Jesus, that is historical fact. They encouraged it, but did not carry out the deed. Pilate and his soldiers who actually carried out the deed share equal blame.

God orchestrated it that way so that NO ONE group of people could stand accused. God used both Jews and Gentiles when he built Solomon's Temple. He used both Jews and Gentiles in the building of His spritual temple as well.

Only racists and biggots choose to ignore the Roman involvement and choose to place the blame soley on the Jews en masse. Not even scripture does such a thing. When harmonized, the gospels and Acts make it clear that it was only a relatively small group of Jews that were instrumental. It was the jealous leaders and their disciples that were involved. Again you have to harmonize the gospel/Acts accounts to see that.

The sin of every person since Adam caused Jesus death to be necessary. It was his love for the fallen race of man that made it possible.

[nebula]

You're right. I do have three fingers pointing back at me. I know it full well.

I do have a struggle with pride - a very bad one. It frightens me.

It does make me feel better to take the blame off myself, to be a victim, to be superior.

But so doing will never make me free.

My fingers are very loud.