Why I am a Christian Zionist

[EricH]

Saints,

Please keep in mind the TOS

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

1. We all bring biases to the text.

2. If eschatology was easy - we would all agree on it (that sounds strangly like a line from League of Their Own)

3. Assume the best of each other. "Love hopes all things, believes all things".

4. Be open to at least considering other view points. God teaches me frequently through people with whom I disagree.

5. We all know more about eschatology than we should

[nebula]

Unsaved and hardened hearts are unsaved and hardened hearts - Jew or Gentile.

but the point of Romans 11 is that the Jews have experienced a "hardening in part until the full number of GENTILES has come in"

I disagree that this is the point of Romans 11. "Do not boast against the natural branches," is part of the chapter, too.

yes, some Gentiles are hardened, but we don't know who they are, it's not an identifiable race or group...most Jews ARE hardened to the gospel, and they are "enemies" of the gospel

But most Gentiles are hardened to the Gospel, too. Visit China or Saudi Arabia or Taiwan or India or Australia sometime and see what I mean.

Or are you saying that it is pointless to witness to the Jews? That you consider them to be eternally damned until the end of the Tribulation?

again, where is your allegiance? to Christ and the gospels or to Jews?

The Jews are the only group of people that the Lord tied His Kingdom on Earth with. "Salvation is of the Jews," remember? Or "if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"

But I love the Jews because I love the King of the Jews. How can I love the King without loving the King's people?

More Jews are coming to faith in Messiah Yeshua in the past few decades than there have ever been since the first century.

per capita? what is your basis for this assertion?

Do you not know?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

but it's not the emphasis of the Church

Ro

[Matthitjah]

Ro

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 10 2007, 05:03 AM)

I have, out of politeness, answered your remarks

was that really your motive? or was it to have the final word? Ezekiel 38 describes Armageddon, you're quite wrong about that (read the final verses of the chapter), but I'll comply with your request take it to the prophecy sub-forum (or perhaps not, I'm not sure it's worth my time)

I was simply interested in having the last word, I would have not suggested discussing it with you in another thread. My position is not threatened by anything you have presented. If you choose not to discuss it in another forum, that is your decision. The offer is there, take it or leave it.

BTW, no one competent in Bible prophecy believes that Magog and Armageddon are the same war. I have started a thread in the Prophecy subforum to explain why.

...the term "Christian Zionist" doesn't mean much to me, unless you happen to be a Jewish Christian (which I'm not)...as part of the Church, our allegiance is first and foremost to Christ and the gospel, not the Jews,

Two things:

First of all, there are many Gentiles who are Christian Zionists and say so, so it has nothing to do with being Jewish.

Secondly, the Gentiles are indebted to the Jews for what they have recieved with respect to to salvation, and that is motivation for Paul's letter to the Romans. The first 8 chapters of romans explains how Gentile salvation was made possible (a mystery in the 1st Century). Romans 9,10 and 11 are the heart of Paul's letter and is an appeal to the Gentile Christians to be a blessing to the Jews in the light of what has come to them through the Jewish people. Paul's appeal in Romans is for the Gentiles to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy, but insteasd the Church simply provoked them all throughout history. For centuries, Christians have looked down their snoot at those "rebellious Jews" and singled them out for special condemnation for rejecting Christ and then wonder why Jews reject Christ.

whom God has hardened during the present Church Age...I don't have a problem with those who back them financially or whatever, but I believe our primary goal is to spread the gospel to those with ears to hear...sadly, that is very few Jews

This is what I am talking about. It is this attitude that the Jews are THE people who reject Christ. The fact is that there are just as many if not more Gentiles just as hardened against the Gospel. It is this kind of arrogance that keeps Jewish people away from the Messiah. The Church is mostly to blame for Jewish rejection of the gospel. It is a fact of history that many Christians don't want to face up to.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(nebula @ Oct 10 2007, 02:49 PM)

Or are you saying that it is pointless to witness to the Jews? That you consider them to be eternally damned until the end of the Tribulation?

no and no...but it's not the emphasis of the Church

It is not and that is the point. The Gospel was supposed to go the Jewish people first. It is not the emphasis of the Church, but itis the emphasis of the Scriptures. The Church has ignored the emphasis of Scripture at the Jews' expense.

QUOTE

The Jews are the only group of people that the Lord tied His Kingdom on Earth with. "Salvation is of the Jews," remember?

Christ is the vehicle of salvation in the Church Age (and all ages, really), not the Jews

That is not what Jesus said.

God ordained that the salvation of the world would come through the Jewish people and it has.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Oct 10 2007, 06:15 PM)

The Gospel was supposed to go the Jewish people first.

agreed

Instead the Church has basically ignored the Jews. The Jewish people remain one of the most unreached people on earth.

QUOTE

It is not the emphasis of the Church, but itis the emphasis of the Scriptures.

in the Church age? I disagree...the emphasis is to "seek and save the lost", and the epistles are focused primarily on Gentile churches...it's not "us" and "them", it's the Church of Jesus Christ....Jew or Greek, slave or free, rich or poor...the Church just happens to consist primarily of Gentiles, but those barriers are erased in Christ

Paul whereever he preached always went to the synagogues first. He never lost his passion for giving the Jews the gospel. Unfortunately, that is one part of Paul's teachings and life that the Church has ignored.

QUOTE

The Church has ignored the emphasis of Scripture at the Jews' expense.

the Church hasn't ignored anyone,

The Church has ignored the Jewish people. There are small pockets of Christians who are building bridges to the Jewish people, but the church at large has ignored the Jewish people as a whole.

In fact, if you want to see just what the Church as a whole thinks about the Jewish people and those who stand up for them, just call yourself a "Christian Zionist" and see what kinds of responses you get.

[nebula]

Again - "Do not boast against the natural branches," is part of Romans chapter 11, too.

Or are you saying that it is pointless to witness to the Jews? That you consider them to be eternally damned until the end of the Tribulation?

no and no...but it's not the emphasis of the Church

Witnessing to "the Jew first" is not emphasized by the apostles?

The Jews are the only group of people that the Lord tied His Kingdom on Earth with. "Salvation is of the Jews," remember?

Christ is the vehicle of salvation in the Church Age (and all ages, really), not the Jews

I noticed you took out the second scripture I posted.

But it was Jesus who said, "Salvation is of the Jews." Why do you suppose He said that?

[nebula]

nope...as I stated in post 77:

...yes, some Gentiles are hardened, but we don't know who they are, it's not an identifiable race or group...most Jews ARE hardened to the gospel, and they are "enemies" of the gospel

Come to think of it - it sounds like you are advocating "predestination." Is that where you are coming from with this statement?

[nebula]

why do I always get the feeling you're tag teaming with shiloh in every thread?

Personal attack?

Well, I fight for what I am passionate about - just like you. It just so happens he and I have similar beliefs. But if you read the whole Board, you will see there are only a few topics that we both engage in.

I've already addressed these issues

No you have not. All you have done is given claims, but you do not clarify them, nor do you explain the basis for your claims, nor do you formulate a debate presentation with them.

This response is a poor way to handle challenges presented to you.