cwcrenshaw Posted October 11, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2007 That's exactly how God wants it. He uses the weak and the small to demonstrate His Glory. That is why He chose to come down bodily taking on the form of a man. Being born in a Stable to the weak and the poor. He entered the world as a Child. Fully God yet fully embracing your situation and your sinful flesh. Does this offend you? Maybe if God is really God He should have chosen Jupiter as the place for His Glory to dwell? It's a much larger and imposing planet. First, to answer your question.....of course it does not offend me, it simply is absurd to me. How can I be offended by something that I don't accept to be true? Secondly, you're missing the entire point I'm making about the relative size of our planet to the rest of the universe. It would be an equivalent of a grain of sand in the sahara thinking that the desert existed exclusively for it. Is this how you perceive that God see's you? That's a lie straight from the pit of hell designed to keep you stifled and in the dark. No, its not how I believe God see's me...because obviously I don't believe in God at all. Moreover, it is not a lie, it has been measured and verified many times over the universe is unfathomably larger than we are...there is nothing to debate there. I see your argument. Yet God placed this planet perfectly in the Universe right where He knew what we would see from our vantage point. It's actually quite beautiful and in the hereafter I'm looking forward to what else I will see. I mean reallly, if God placed me here and has been so very Good to me, what else does He have in store for me? It's gonna be awesome. What is to say that this planet and solar system is placed perfectly? Of course some would think that because we have no basis for comparison. For all you know, we could be in the dullest and most insignificant place in the universe and think it was "just great" because we have always been here. No coincidence at all. It's actually quite Biblical to say the Universe was Created for us men so that God would receive all the Glory. Not conceited at all either. God really Loves us. Do you think highly of yourself? I mean do you have a reason for Hope? You have a kind of bleak view of mankind. It could be because of your viewpoint regarding Evolution and all. It leaves man as nothing more than a simple monkey with no inherent value whatsoever. It means nothing to me when you say something is "quite Biblical". To answer your questions though...of course I hope, everyone does...but I do not base what I believe to be true about the universe on what I "hope" is true. Rather, the basis for my beliefs (or non-belief) is based upon the world I see around me. My viewpoints on evolution have nothing to do with my outlook on life...in fact, I consider myself very lucky to be alive and I treasure every moment I have. I value my life and yours and every living creature on this planet not because I believe that God created us...but because we are all that we have. It's sad to me to think that you believe that without God, life is has no inherent value. This comes to a question of morality and if you need God to tell you that killing, rape, etc are wrong then I would strongly advise you continue believing. That's a pretty harsh opinion. I see Beauty and God's Glory in the Universe. I remember as a child watching Carl Sagan (Billions, upon Billions, upon Billions. ) He sure was pretty much in awe of this wonderful Universe and he was an atheist. Again, how "harsh" something is does not affect how true something is. You are confusing the ability to look at the wonderment of the universe with the facts about the universe. Thanks for the Carl Sagan reference though one of my favorites. (We do not allow youtube links here for various reasons. ) Not someone, God Himself in the flesh. Yes, I am familiar with the situation. Still...how is this merciful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 11, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2007 Grace to you, Secondly, you're missing the entire point I'm making about the relative size of our planet to the rest of the universe. It would be an equivalent of a grain of sand in the sahara thinking that the desert existed exclusively for it. No, I gather your point completely and your problem is that you are looking at the whole issue through mans eyes and not God's. Of course man wants to feel significant and feel as if his planet was the largest and most important in the Universe. It's just not how God operates is all. He has chosen and Created the earth with all of this this in mind. With you in mind so as to give you the best possibility of gaining salvation. It just may be His point of order that your decpetion has led you to believe that it's weak, small, and insignificant. It's so you will know that He isn't. Moreover, it is not a lie, The lie isn't the Universe. The lie is that there isn't a God or that He finds you to be small and insignificant. Actually He Loves you. What is to say that this planet and solar system is placed perfectly? Of course some would think that because we have no basis for comparison. For all you know, we could be in the dullest and most insignificant place in the universe and think it was "just great" because we have always been here. That's a lie too. God has indeed spoken and has indeed stated that He has put the seasons and the times in place for us men. This would include the placement of the earth so as to guarentee His Word. Rather, the basis for my beliefs (or non-belief) is based upon the world I see around me. What a coincidence? Me too. I see with new eyes. It's sad to me to think that you believe that without God, life is has no inherent value. This comes to a question of morality and if you need God to tell you that killing, rape, etc are wrong then I would strongly advise you continue believing. Without God and His Word, you and I wouldn't even be having this conversation let alone breathing. The Word of God is quite clear that mans thoughts and ways are not God's thoughts and ways. His are very much higher than yours and mine. If evolution brings us to the point of our own morality. How do you explain those folks in far off lands who still live with superstition and are very much Savage in the way that they treat each other? Without God mankind left to his own devices is savage and cold as well as cruel. The Word of God is quite clear on this point as well. Man's every thought is of how to devize new ways to sin. Yes, I am familiar with the situation. Still...how is this merciful? Well the penalty for your sin is your death. God requires your blood. Yet God in His infinite Mercy has paid this price so that you will not die but Live and not only that you will be Justified in His site by His Grace. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwcrenshaw Posted October 11, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2007 oh boy, where to start. No, I gather your point completely and your problem is that you are looking at the whole issue through mans eyes and not God's. Of course man wants to feel significant and feel as if his planet was the largest and most important in the Universe. It's just not how God operates is all. He has chosen and Created the earth with all of this this in mind. With you in mind so as to give you the best possibility of gaining salvation. It just may be His point of order that your decpetion has led you to believe that it's weak, small, and insignificant. It's so you will know that He isn't. Of course I would view the issue through man's eyes, as do you. You are exactly right though that man wants to feel significant and feel as if his planet was the largest and most important in the Universe...this is exactly my point..it is not about what one "wants to feel". You have stated several times that the Universe exists for the benefit of man...that man is the purpose of God creating the universe...and now your saying the opposite that "[that is] just not how God operates". So you are saying that all this universe is created with us in mind but deliberately made in such a way to fool into thinking it is not? Seems to me that if God wanted to setup the universe "so as to give you the best possibility of gaining salvation", he would have done it in a way that does not inheritently question his very existence. Moreover, if God did setup the universe in a way to make us naturally question his existence...wouldn't it be rather vengeful to send someone to hell to burn forever because he did question? Surely if God designed the universe in a way to make us question then we would in fact question...because God is supposedly perfect so of course it would work as he designed it....this obviously then is setup to ensure that some will fail and that not everyone is meant to be saved. Logic is rather harsh sometimes. The lie isn't the Universe. The lie is that there isn't a God or that He finds you to be small and insignificant. Actually He Loves you. nothing constructive to add here. That's a lie too. God has indeed spoken and has indeed stated that He has put the seasons and the times in place for us men. This would include the placement of the earth so as to guarentee His Word. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it a lie. If I were to call everything that I don't believe a lie then you would be rather offended. I see error of doing so though and wouldn't want to offend you anyway. I wonder if you could do the same. The fact that we have seasons has nothing to do with where we are in the universe, it has to do with our orbit relative to the sun and the tilt of our axis. What a coincidence? Me too. I see with new eyes. I just hope those "new eyes" don't blur your vision Without God and His Word, you and I wouldn't even be having this conversation let alone breathing. The Word of God is quite clear that mans thoughts and ways are not God's thoughts and ways. His are very much higher than yours and mine. Suppose you are right that God's thoughts are much higher than yours or mine. How then can we trust a Bible that has been revised, edited, interpreted and written over and over again by man to be exactly true to the thoughts and intentions of God? If evolution brings us to the point of our own morality. How do you explain those folks in far off lands who still live with superstition and are very much Savage in the way that they treat each other? Without God mankind left to his own devices is savage and cold as well as cruel. The Word of God is quite clear on this point as well. Man's every thought is of how to devize new ways to sin. Well, Don't forget that these "folks in far off lands" are often savage to each other BECAUSE of superstition. Accusations of possession, evil spirits, "your invisible man doesnt resemble my invisible man", etc. As for man being cold and savage without God...that is completely unfounded. Suppose tomorrow you were to discover undiable proof that God is not real...would you immediately go out and be savage and cold to everyone you meet? If no...this shows that man is respectful of eachother and other life without the requirement that god exists. If yes...then once again, I encourage you to continue believing. Well the penalty for your sin is your death. God requires your blood. Yet God in His infinite Mercy has paid this price so that you will not die but Live and not only that you will be Justified in His site by His Grace. This logic is outstanding. God created me so that I would be forced to submit to him or face the penalty of hell. I grow stronger in my Atheism by the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2007 Grace to you, Oh' gee Mr Crenshaw, I can see were getting no where at all. You aren't really here to debate and make supposition. Your mind is made up and you hope to teach or at least influence. That really stinks. Remember what we talked about. It's extremely important. The Lord Bless you and I will be praying for you to get a new set of eyes too. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rehydrated_for_Christ Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/26/1983 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Ah, that is the beauty of our God-the only God. He supplies us enough evidence to know something is behind it all, but let's enough go unanswered that we must go out on that limb of faith. Faith is the crux of Chrisitianity (he he, look up the def of crux and see how well that fits ) If you ever meet a "Christian" that offers 100% proof of anything, they are seriously misled. Faith in God is the key of our religion. Until you experience assurity of God in your life it is not possible for anyone to explain or express to you how we "know" there is a God. It is simply knowledge from God that He so wants to give each one of us. I sorta disagree with some of that like "the key of our religion". I happen to believe that Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship with the Creator God and it's only by His grace and love that we can be called His children. And also, I believe it takes more faith to believe in evolution because we see people create things all day long, so we know it's possible for a God to create something. But for things to just happen out of nothing and no one doing it is way harder to believe, at least it seems that way to me. I have to respond to this just so I don't get misrepresented by silence. I do, in fact think that relationship with God is the most important, but faith that our God is THE GOD is the key to our religion-Christianity, and that our God-The God- sent His son Christ to die for us. Relationship is a personal matter, but religion is governing. We can get kind of messed up if we rely on relationship without religious leaders ordained by God to help lead us. So religion is important and faith is the crux. Now, on having faith in evolution, I see your point and I in no way want you to think that I blindly go around saying "Well, God did it, so you can't be right". I never claimed to know how God did anything, especially in creation. I don't just think He twinkled His nose or waved a magic wand, I just know that He orchestrated it. Who knows how long Adam and Eve stayed in Eden before the infamous apple? The earth may very well be millions of years old,etc. I don't try to know God's mechanisims, I just know He's pulling the strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted October 12, 2007 oh boy, where to start. Of course I would view the issue through man's eyes, as do you. You are exactly right though that man wants to feel significant and feel as if his planet was the largest and most important in the Universe...this is exactly my point..it is not about what one "wants to feel". You have stated several times that the Universe exists for the benefit of man...that man is the purpose of God creating the universe...and now your saying the opposite that "[that is] just not how God operates". So you are saying that all this universe is created with us in mind but deliberately made in such a way to fool into thinking it is not? Seems to me that if God wanted to setup the universe "so as to give you the best possibility of gaining salvation", he would have done it in a way that does not inheritently question his very existence. Moreover, if God did setup the universe in a way to make us naturally question his existence...wouldn't it be rather vengeful to send someone to hell to burn forever because he did question? Surely if God designed the universe in a way to make us question then we would in fact question...because God is supposedly perfect so of course it would work as he designed it....this obviously then is setup to ensure that some will fail and that not everyone is meant to be saved. Logic is rather harsh sometimes. 1 Corinthians 2:11-15 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damo1 Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,822 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/16/1967 Share Posted October 12, 2007 from damo1 you go guys as if they want to invade our forum and get us to quesiton our faith why cant we hijack some one elses and leave what we feel is truth i wil let my signiture say the rest may gods mercy be on those that reject him as we all will face the living god on judgment day and their will be no excuses and this is the day i am weighting for to see all those that pushed me to question my faith and then see them answer the living god to why they found it hard to beleive go guys my double thumbs up lets stick up for what we beleive in and not be ashamed science has nothing to do with religon or evolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat8585 Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,360 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 7,866 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1946 Share Posted October 12, 2007 The fact that atheists do not believe in a higher power is based on a lack of evidence... Consider the intricacy of the human body, especially the brain. The most advanced super computer is stone age by comparison. The information in one cell could fill volumes. Consider the conception and birth of a baby. Consider that if one little detail was off in the creation, it couldn't exist. How much more evidence do you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat8585 Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,360 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 7,866 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1946 Share Posted October 12, 2007 The fact that atheists do not believe in a higher power is based on a lack of evidence... Consider the intricacy of the human body, especially the brain. The most advanced super computer is stone age by comparison. The information in one cell could fill volumes. Consider the conception and birth of a baby. Consider that if one little detail was off in the creation, it couldn't exist. How much more evidence do you need? That is evidence of life. It is not evidence of a creator. Well, how do you think such miraculous things got here? Out of the clear blue, by chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwcrenshaw Posted October 12, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 12, 2007 Grace to you, Oh' gee Mr Crenshaw, I can see were getting no where at all. You aren't really here to debate and make supposition. Your mind is made up and you hope to teach or at least influence. That really stinks. Remember what we talked about. It's extremely important. The Lord Bless you and I will be praying for you to get a new set of eyes too. Peace, Dave I am here to debate...part of debating is asking tough questions and not simply submitting to the other side without any evidence. If you are confident in your position on any issue, you should be able to endure some tough questioning. It's unfortunate to see you throw up your hands in frustration instead of adequately attempting to answer some very basic questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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