Involuntary Servitude

[Grungekid]

Hello Grungekid. When it comes to authority in the home, I believe that ideally, the husband should seek to find agreement. I think there will be very few cases where agreement cannot be reached if an effort is made, but in the exceptions where both are diametrically opposed in their opinions, ultimately the husband has to make the final decision. If he is right or if he is wrong, he has the final word, and also has to bear the responsibility for the consequences.

If He went against God, doesn't the wife have a freesay, for the sake of Truth? That seems so unfavorable for so many reasons.

[Grungekid]

Hello Grungekid. When it comes to authority in the home, I believe that ideally, the husband should seek to find agreement. I think there will be very few cases where agreement cannot be reached if an effort is made, but in the exceptions where both are diametrically opposed in their opinions, ultimately the husband has to make the final decision. If he is right or if he is wrong, he has the final word, and also has to bear the responsibility for the consequences.

If He went against God, doesn't the wife have a freesay, for the sake of Truth? That seems so unfavorable for so many reasons.

I guess it depends on what you mean by went against God. If you mean that he is demanding that she do something sinful, God's authority is higher than his. In other cases, how would you know if he were going against God? Perhaps she is the one going against God? In the same way, how would one know he is wrong, unless he his will prevails and he is proven wrong? Many times, someone may seem to be wrong in their judgement, and later be proven correct.

It shouldn't be a Socratic ethical discourse, I was just wondering what would happen if the husband made a decision for the family that would be immoral by the bible's laws or that was blasphemous.

[Guest Biblicist]

So basically, what you are saying, none, is that we should follow the 10 commandments only and anything not directily related to the 10 commandments in the rest of scripture it is to be disregarded?

At times, None appears to be saying that, but at the same time, she likes to throw in other scriptures from time to time, and even make up laws as she goes along, like the supposed law we are to treat everyone as equals. It seems to be, whatever None feels is right, is right, and we are supposed to take her word for it. If we are not able to believe the canon is reliable, I'm sure not going to accept the notion that we can go by the opinion of one person.

While I respect your opinion, Butero, and your insights on the subject, I would appreciate it if you would just let None answer this question.

I'd like a clear answer from her. I think this may be the crux of the situation...There are some basic questions that she should answer first, I believe.

None, could you please tell me straight up, do you believe that we are ONLY to follow the 10 Commandments and everything else is disregarded as unnecessary "fluff"?

YES or NO...

[None]

Butero,

I showed you where Noah was told by God that he could eat every animal as opposed to Moses strict dietary laws.

A perfect example of rules changing around a culture.

The Law God gave Noah about killing was in it's pure form. If it were obeyed there would have been no need for wars and battles and God's people would not have had to shed the blood of the men who were shedding blood. Right? Even David knew the difference between killing wicked murderers and killing for selfish gain(as he did and was punished for).

Jesus said all the laws hang on two Laws: 1)Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. 2)Love your neighbor as yourself. When those Laws are firmly in place, and not broken or altered, the other laws will be followed effortlessly. The Ten Commandments clarified Laws that made sense to the Laws Jesus mentioned.

I don't remember any that states, "Thou shalt treat each other as equals." If God wanted us to do that, it seems like he would have placed that commandment with the other 10, what you call, universal laws. Since it is not there, it is only opinion, and I think I will reject it.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is treating each other as equals.

Jesus said these are the most important Laws and He would know.

If you want to compare Jesus' relationship with His church to marriage between a man and a woman, do it like this: Jesus said the reason the Father loves Him is because He lays down His life, no one takes it from Him, He lays it down willingly. Wives do not have to be told to submit to their husband's rulership when the marriage is in perfect unity because both the man and the woman will love each other enough to lay down their lives for each other willingly, treating each other as they want to be treated.

Everything they do will be to please the other, this is perfect unity. It does not need additional rules. Rules that are easily broken or abused. Rules that give no room for God to work in their heart, showing them the joy of giving freely. Perfect love is perfect unity. Oneness. Not, one and a lesser.

You bind people with imperfect rules and it all falls apart.

(Bib, that should answer your question, too.)

[Guest Biblicist]

So yes, you do believe that only the 10 Commandments should be obeyed and all other writings in the Bible are just unnecessary "fluff"?

If this is what you truly believe then you have a serious problem...Where on earth did you learn this claptrap, and more importantly, how can you reject the teachings of God like that?

[Guest Biblicist]

Wasn't one of the teachings of Paul..."Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ"? [Ephesians 5:21]

Sounds a lot like, love your neighbor as yourself... Wouldn't submitting to each other put everyone on the same basic level?

Odd that it says that right before admonishing wives to submit to husbands and husbands to love their wives...

Either Paul was speaking directly for God, in all he said, or he was completely crazy, quoting God one minute and rambling on the next about extra unnecessary "rules".

Paul the Rambling Apostle...

It would seem to me that we can not accept one teacing, and reject the others...Especially when the teachings all come from God... The alternative belief is... unthinkable!

[None]

Butero,

I showed you where Noah was told by God that he could eat every animal as opposed to Moses strict dietary laws.

A perfect example of rules changing around a culture.

The Law God gave Noah about killing was in it's pure form. If it were obeyed there would have been no need for wars and battles and God's people would not have had to shed the blood of the men who were shedding blood. Right? Even David knew the difference between killing wicked murderers and killing for selfish gain(as he did and was punished for).

Jesus said all the laws hang on two Laws: 1)Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. 2)Love your neighbor as yourself. When those Laws are firmly in place, and not broken or altered, the other laws will be followed effortlessly. The Ten Commandments clarified Laws that made sense to the Laws Jesus mentioned.

I don't remember any that states, "Thou shalt treat each other as equals." If God wanted us to do that, it seems like he would have placed that commandment with the other 10, what you call, universal laws. Since it is not there, it is only opinion, and I think I will reject it.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is treating each other as equals.

Jesus said these are the most important Laws and He would know.

If you want to compare Jesus' relationship with His church to marriage between a man and a woman, do it like this: Jesus said the reason the Father loves Him is because He lays down His life, no one takes it from Him, He lays it down willingly. Wives do not have to be told to submit to their husband's rulership when the marriage is in perfect unity because both the man and the woman will love each other enough to lay down their lives for each other willingly, treating each other as they want to be treated.

Everything they do will be to please the other, this is perfect unity. It does not need additional rules. Rules that are easily broken or abused. Rules that give no room for God to work in their heart, showing them the joy of giving freely. Perfect love is perfect unity. Oneness. Not, one and a lesser.

You bind people with imperfect rules and it all falls apart.

(Bib, that should answer your question, too.)

Love your neighbor as yourself is not the same as treating each other as equals. For instance, I have been a supervisor, and had people under me. They were not equals on the job, but it was still possible to love them as myself. In addition, it is not one of the 10 commandments. Also, once again you failed to respond to any of the things OC said, and you did not address anything I said directly. You brought an entirely differen't thing into the argument, and it doesn't prove that the teachings of Paul are invalid today.

When a woman marries a man, she is not marrying him for his profit or gain, she is marrying him because she loves him and he loves her. If she were not marrying him but was hired at his place of employment and was working "under" him, she would have to obey the rules he lays out for this place of employment they both work at. Husbands and wives join together and become ONE. Bosses and employees join together and become bosses and employees. There is a difference.

[Openly Curious]

Butero,

I showed you where Noah was told by God that he could eat every animal as opposed to Moses strict dietary laws.

A perfect example of rules changing around a culture.

The Law God gave Noah about killing was in it's pure form. If it were obeyed there would have been no need for wars and battles and God's people would not have had to shed the blood of the men who were shedding blood. Right? Even David knew the difference between killing wicked murderers and killing for selfish gain(as he did and was punished for).

Jesus said all the laws hang on two Laws: 1)Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. 2)Love your neighbor as yourself. When those Laws are firmly in place, and not broken or altered, the other laws will be followed effortlessly. The Ten Commandments clarified Laws that made sense to the Laws Jesus mentioned.

I don't remember any that states, "Thou shalt treat each other as equals." If God wanted us to do that, it seems like he would have placed that commandment with the other 10, what you call, universal laws. Since it is not there, it is only opinion, and I think I will reject it.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is treating each other as equals.

Jesus said these are the most important Laws and He would know.

If you want to compare Jesus' relationship with His church to marriage between a man and a woman, do it like this: Jesus said the reason the Father loves Him is because He lays down His life, no one takes it from Him, He lays it down willingly. Wives do not have to be told to submit to their husband's rulership when the marriage is in perfect unity because both the man and the woman will love each other enough to lay down their lives for each other willingly, treating each other as they want to be treated.

Everything they do will be to please the other, this is perfect unity. It does not need additional rules. Rules that are easily broken or abused. Rules that give no room for God to work in their heart, showing them the joy of giving freely. Perfect love is perfect unity. Oneness. Not, one and a lesser.

You bind people with imperfect rules and it all falls apart.

(Bib, that should answer your question, too.)

Love your neighbor as yourself is not the same as treating each other as equals. For instance, I have been a supervisor, and had people under me. They were not equals on the job, but it was still possible to love them as myself. In addition, it is not one of the 10 commandments. Also, once again you failed to respond to any of the things OC said, and you did not address anything I said directly. You brought an entirely differen't thing into the argument, and it doesn't prove that the teachings of Paul are invalid today.

When a woman marries a man, she is not marrying him for his profit or gain, she is marrying him because she loves him and he loves her. If she were not marrying him but was hired at his place of employment and was working "under" him, she would have to obey the rules he lays out for this place of employment they both work at. Husbands and wives join together and become ONE. Bosses and employees join together and become bosses and employees. There is a difference.

Boy None,

You have no concept of what love is in marriage. Oh by the way I'm taking it that you have no substance in which to give in regards to my post. I guess there is nothing new there. As far as obeying only the ten commandments in your beliefs it want do away with the rest of the bible you don't seem to like. And your salvation want come through obeying the ten commandments either because there was no law given to make one righteous before God that's why it took the work of the cross and not the works of the law as righteousness only comes through acceptance of Jesus and that isn't listed in the ten commandment is it. If righteousness was obtained by the old covenant we wouldn't have needed a new covenant with better promises.

I also think that you are in need of some serious couseling from a Christian therapist as you have an abnormal obsession with this topic and with husbands in general it seems.

[None]

Butero,

I showed you where Noah was told by God that he could eat every animal as opposed to Moses strict dietary laws.

A perfect example of rules changing around a culture.

The Law God gave Noah about killing was in it's pure form. If it were obeyed there would have been no need for wars and battles and God's people would not have had to shed the blood of the men who were shedding blood. Right? Even David knew the difference between killing wicked murderers and killing for selfish gain(as he did and was punished for).

Jesus said all the laws hang on two Laws: 1)Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. 2)Love your neighbor as yourself. When those Laws are firmly in place, and not broken or altered, the other laws will be followed effortlessly. The Ten Commandments clarified Laws that made sense to the Laws Jesus mentioned.

I don't remember any that states, "Thou shalt treat each other as equals." If God wanted us to do that, it seems like he would have placed that commandment with the other 10, what you call, universal laws. Since it is not there, it is only opinion, and I think I will reject it.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is treating each other as equals.

Jesus said these are the most important Laws and He would know.

If you want to compare Jesus' relationship with His church to marriage between a man and a woman, do it like this: Jesus said the reason the Father loves Him is because He lays down His life, no one takes it from Him, He lays it down willingly. Wives do not have to be told to submit to their husband's rulership when the marriage is in perfect unity because both the man and the woman will love each other enough to lay down their lives for each other willingly, treating each other as they want to be treated.

Everything they do will be to please the other, this is perfect unity. It does not need additional rules. Rules that are easily broken or abused. Rules that give no room for God to work in their heart, showing them the joy of giving freely. Perfect love is perfect unity. Oneness. Not, one and a lesser.

You bind people with imperfect rules and it all falls apart.

(Bib, that should answer your question, too.)

Love your neighbor as yourself is not the same as treating each other as equals. For instance, I have been a supervisor, and had people under me. They were not equals on the job, but it was still possible to love them as myself. In addition, it is not one of the 10 commandments. Also, once again you failed to respond to any of the things OC said, and you did not address anything I said directly. You brought an entirely different thing into the argument, and it doesn't prove that the teachings of Paul are invalid today.

When a woman marries a man, she is not marrying him for his profit or gain, she is marrying him because she loves him and he loves her. If she were not marrying him but was hired at his place of employment and was working "under" him, she would have to obey the rules he lays out for this place of employment they both work at. Husbands and wives join together and become ONE. Bosses and employees join together and become bosses and employees. There is a difference.

Nevertheless, God still says in his Word that the wife is to be in submission to her husband. There is no getting around that, nor the fact that not one of the 10 commandments says we are to treat each other as equals, and based on your standards, that means it is not a universal law. It is nothing but your opinion, and in this case, your opinion is contrary to scripture.

By the way, children are not equal to their parents in authority either, nor are parents to treat them as equal in authority, but they still love them.

Before children reach the age of accountability, they're guiltless when they obey their parents and their obedience causes them to sin. When they are no longer a child, the situation changes, they're to "put away childish things" and obey God, above all. Respect and honor is different than obedience.

As far as laws go, Jesus made it completely clear which ones He felt were the most important and He said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself."

If that doesn't say for us to treat each others as equals, IF NOT BETTER, then what does it mean to you?

Women naturally fall into a pattern of wanting to please their husband trusting his judgment above their own, when he has won her respect and love. It's a natural born instinct to submit to a man's dominance. The man naturally has power over the woman. It's harder for her to break this instinct and obey God because she wants to please her man, above all. A woman rests in this submission and often uses it as an excuse if both slip into sin. She "can't say no to him". To tell a woman she has to obey her husband, as a child has to obey his parents, with or without his love and respect, is telling her she may use this excuse. That's a trap satan uses. The laws of our great nation under God are fair and just. As God is. If she's lead to believe she "was only obeying her husband" and thoughtlessly commits a crime with him, it won't hold up in court. It didn't hold up in God's "court" for Sapphira.

Sapphira was accountable for her actions and was not praised for her obedience to her husband. She obeyed her husband, as told to by Peter and Paul in the Bible. "The husband is under God and the wife is under the husband" leaves no room for if's and's or but's. A rule is a rule, black or white. That's why it was not written in stone. That's why it's a choice a woman makes and usually does make, willingly, for her husband.

Foundational rules are rules in their purity. To love God first and then each other, placing ourselves last is the perfect example of humility and when we obey these foundations every other rule in life falls into place naturally. These foundations leave no room for selfishness, greed, condescension, narcissism and self-exaltation. The world might be a better place if these rules were in everybody's heart and followed strictly, don't you think?

[Emily~Anne]

Perhaps the problem is seeing submission to husbands as an all or nothing thing? If my husband told me to go prostitute myself, I would not do that, but yet I would still submit to him in other areas, even if he was failing to love me as he loves himself, because two wrongs do not make a right. And who knows, perhaps the purity and reverence of my life would draw my husband to Christ as it says in 1 Peter 3? No one is beyond hope.