A new take on an old argument

[Khristeeanos]

For those who believe in the version of OSAS which says if you ever fall away you were never saved to begin with have overlooked one huge error in their thinking.

It would mean that anybody who believes in such a doctrine would have absolutely no security because what if 5 years or so down the road they might fall away. It would cast all kinds of doubt in their mind right now as to whether or not they are saved and secure.

So the doctrine actually does the exact opposite of its stated intent which is to give security.

It should be called eternal insecurity!

People, our security comes from Christ, not a doctrine!

[exrockstar]

For those who believe in the version of OSAS which says if you ever fall away you were never saved to begin with have overlooked one huge error in their thinking.

this is a contradicting sentence. either you believe in OSAS or you believe in "falling away."

sorry for taking this thread on a tangent.

[Guest shiloh357]

I would like to clarify that this topic is going down the wrong path. If you look carefully at the topic starter, this is not leading to the argument of whether or not a person can loose their salvation. Maybe the title was misleading. The issue I was bringing up was concerning the contradiction of "once saved always saved" and "assurance of salvation." My claim is that the two cannot go together. Either you accept that once a person is saved they are always saved or you accept that a person can be assured of their salvation. To note on the usage of "I," in no way am I trying to push a salvation based upon anything I do. This critique along with all those debating over whether or not salvation can be lost (while important and useful) are missing the point (probably due to my lack of clarity, not their lack of thinking). If that were the point, I think this would belong on the "controversial" board. I posted on the "Doctrinal Questions" board because I am discussing the doctrines of "preservation of the saints" and "assurance of salvation." It appears to be a contradiction to say that a person can be both assured of salvation and hold to a preservation of the saints doctrine, at least from a humanly logic. Hopefully this gets things back on the right track.

God Worshippers

This really kind of demonstrates a bit of a lack of understanding about eternal security. It is not that we believe that a person was never saved if they fall away. Rather it is those who profess Christ, but who never demonstrated any fruit, and continued to live in sin who we normally assume never had a genuine profession.

I am sure you will find some who articulate what you THINK eternal security teaches, but we who believe in eternal security are not a monolith. You will always find some with a different twist on it, but typically we view people who fall away as needing to rededicate their lives. We do not arbitrarily assume they have lost their salvation or were never saved to start with.

It would be nice if we were actually asked what we believe rather than folks starting from an assumed premise.

[EricH]

I would like to clarify that this topic is going down the wrong path. If you look carefully at the topic starter, this is not leading to the argument of whether or not a person can loose their salvation. Maybe the title was misleading. The issue I was bringing up was concerning the contradiction of "once saved always saved" and "assurance of salvation." My claim is that the two cannot go together. Either you accept that once a person is saved they are always saved or you accept that a person can be assured of their salvation. To note on the usage of "I," in no way am I trying to push a salvation based upon anything I do. This critique along with all those debating over whether or not salvation can be lost (while important and useful) are missing the point (probably due to my lack of clarity, not their lack of thinking). If that were the point, I think this would belong on the "controversial" board. I posted on the "Doctrinal Questions" board because I am discussing the doctrines of "preservation of the saints" and "assurance of salvation." It appears to be a contradiction to say that a person can be both assured of salvation and hold to a preservation of the saints doctrine, at least from a humanly logic. Hopefully this gets things back on the right track.

God Worshippers

This really kind of demonstrates a bit of a lack of understanding about eternal security. It is not that we believe that a person was never saved if they fall away. Rather it is those who profess Christ, but who never demonstrated any fruit, and continued to live in sin who we normally assume never had a genuine profession.

I am sure you will find some who articulate what you THINK eternal security teaches, but we who believe in eternal security are not a monolith. You will always find some with a different twist on it, but typically we view people who fall away as needing to rededicate their lives. We do not arbitrarily assume they have lost their salvation or were never saved to start with.

It would be nice if we were actually asked what we believe rather than folks starting from an assumed premise.

Thats right. it is really a straw man type of argument

[Khristeeanos]

For those who believe in the version of OSAS which says if you ever fall away you were never saved to begin with have overlooked one huge error in their thinking.

this is a contradicting sentence. either you believe in OSAS or you believe in "falling away."

sorry for taking this thread on a tangent.

There seem to be two main categories within the OSAS doctrine.

1. One is saved no matter what behavior they have.

2. If falls away, it proves that they were never saved in the first place.

Is this a correct assessment?

If not, please correct me.

If so, allow me to further explain my original post.

[EricH]

For those who believe in the version of OSAS which says if you ever fall away you were never saved to begin with have overlooked one huge error in their thinking.

this is a contradicting sentence. either you believe in OSAS or you believe in "falling away."

sorry for taking this thread on a tangent.

There seem to be two main categories within the OSAS doctrine.

1. One is saved no matter what behavior they have.

2. If falls away, it proves that they were never saved in the first place.

Is this a correct assessment?

If not, please correct me.

If so, allow me to further explain my original post.

There is no such doctrine as OSAS. There is a doctrine called Perseverance of the Saints.

[exrockstar]

For those who believe in the version of OSAS which says if you ever fall away you were never saved to begin with have overlooked one huge error in their thinking.

this is a contradicting sentence. either you believe in OSAS or you believe in "falling away."

sorry for taking this thread on a tangent.

There seem to be two main categories within the OSAS doctrine.

1. One is saved no matter what behavior they have.

2. If falls away, it proves that they were never saved in the first place.

Is this a correct assessment?

If not, please correct me.

If so, allow me to further explain my original post.

There is no such doctrine as OSAS. There is a doctrine called Perseverance of the Saints.

Perseverance of Saints is doctrine that states if you persevere, you are saved.

If you fail to persevere, you are damned. correct?

kinda....like "it's up to me."

i may be wrong?

[damo1]

from damo1

i had to read were others wear going on this and now that i see wear most are going i will add my little bit in to how i see what is being said and to how this relates to me note i am not attacking the op who posted this but i am attacking to what is being said on if we as Christians believe that we are saved or security alone assures us that we will enter heaven and then some said also

if some one slips their security is not assured that means that they cant go to heaven with the rest of us that know what gods word says and that is its a personal thing wear one needs to constantly strive and work on his own salvation

Paul says it this way in romans on the hole issue and this is how i see it for my self as even though many slip and many have slipped and fallen you can not honestly say to a person once they give their hearts to god that their security is sealed and no matter what they do they will enter heaven when Christ comes back for us to say this to a new Christian you are like saying you know what gods word says and if we are to read it with the help of the holy spirit guiding us then you will see that their are guidelines that we have to abide by if we are to say our security is secure and i as a person know that Christ will let me in

romans 8

12 Therfore brothers we have an obligation but it is not the sin ful nature to live according to it

13 for if you live according to the sin ful nature you will die but if you live by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live

14 because those who are led by the spirit of god are sons of god

15 for you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear but received the spirit of sonship and by him we cry Abba father

16 the spirit of god testififies with our spirit that we are gods children

17 now if we are children then we are heirs heirs of god an co heirs with christ if indeed share in his sufferings in order that we also may share in his glory

Paul knows what we humans will face when we allow Christ into our lives sin is one of the many reason a person will do this i even slipped so many times as a new Christian and my pastor even told me just because you are a Christian don't think that your assurance alone of knowing that your security in heaven is sealed you as a person will have to work constantly and fight to the very end as temptations will come your way and its like running in a race and as a runner that runner strives to be at the top of his game winning every single even my 10 yr old boy is good at what he does he runs in long distant events and has one many prizes not just in his community he lives in but in other events held all over the place and he is beating kids in his age group from 10 to 12yr old he runs 5 kilometers a day

my son did not just get there by waking up one day and saying this is what i will do he works at it and he trains very hard his step father trains young kids like my son and i have been told my son can make it to the Olympics as one of the best runners in his field as a long distance runner if he works hard and if this is what some thing he wants to do

i feel the reason many pastors say this is they fear if they say the truth and that is living the Christian life is hard and with the Christian life comes suffering and also hardships imagine speaking to a new Christian like this and telling them bluntly that what you are going to do today its going to be a turning point but also you will suffer and their will be hardships as well now can you honestly tell me as a person that you will allow your self to live this life if you know what it is going to be like

this is what job says about security and secure

job 31

24 if i have made gold my hope and have said to the fine gold though art my confidence

Hebrews 6

19 which we have as an anchor of the soul a hope both sure and stedfast and entering into that which is with in the viel

psalm 44

21 shall not god search this out for he knoweth the secrets of the heart

psalm 16

5 the lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup thou maintainest my lot

2peter 3

17 And so dear friends since you know these things continually be on your gaurd not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people lest you fall from your secure position

ephesians 4

30 do not greive the holy spirit whom you wear marked with a seal for the day of redemtion

2 timothy 2.

19 how ever gods solid foundation still stands it has this inscription on it the lord knows those who belong to him and everyone who calls on the name of the lord must turn away from evil

its like me saying to my self am i sure my name is written in the book of life i will only know when i as a person strive all the way to the end and then when i hear jesus voice saying welcome then and only then will i know i was on the right path this is a personal thing but many turn this into a debate to wear many things are thrown to the point wear you almost attac each other my walk is my walk with god as i know as a person i can still slip and that menas i can not use this term others have used and that is i can rest assured my security is 100% granted and i need not do a thing but just blend in and relax and enjoy the ride

constantly i am working on this as many of times i have wanted to throw it away but i say no as i now wear the other road will lead to

now i am going to sit back come back to this topic and see what is thrown at me for saying what i have said as this should be a personal thing between you and god not any one else your pastor can not say 100% percent you will get to heaven if he thinks he knows he is only fooling him self you as a person will have to work at this for the rest of your living life while you breath on this earth until you pass your last breath as a human then and only then will you know

[EricH]

For those who believe in the version of OSAS which says if you ever fall away you were never saved to begin with have overlooked one huge error in their thinking.

this is a contradicting sentence. either you believe in OSAS or you believe in "falling away."

sorry for taking this thread on a tangent.

There seem to be two main categories within the OSAS doctrine.

1. One is saved no matter what behavior they have.

2. If falls away, it proves that they were never saved in the first place.

Is this a correct assessment?

If not, please correct me.

If so, allow me to further explain my original post.

There is no such doctrine as OSAS. There is a doctrine called Perseverance of the Saints.

Perseverance of Saints is doctrine that states if you persevere, you are saved.

If you fail to persevere, you are damned. correct?

kinda....like "it's up to me."

i may be wrong?

That is not what Perseverance of the Saints states. Here is an accurate summary of the Perseverance of the Saints;

1. Individuals are saved by grace through faith in Jeus alone

2. All those who truly enter into this relationship with God receive a new nature

3. One of the fruits of this new nature is the God-given ability to persevere in the faith.

4. All who have been genuinely connected with jesus for eternal life will persevere in that relationship.

5. Only those who do persevere to the end demonstrate that they have received this gift of life.

6. If one does not persevere, it should cause one to examine their faith to determine if it is genuine

[MeCajunboy]

Lately I have been thinking about the whole eternal security thing and something hit me; can you really have eternal security if you cannot lose your salvation? Those who argue that we have eternal security say that once you are saved you are always saved. Opponents of this idea always bring up some example of someone who "becomes" a Christian and then "falls away." Those who are in favor of the preservation of the saints reply, "that person was never truly saved." And, it is with this answer I have decided that if you cannot loose your salvation you cannot be secure in your eternal state (you can not have eternal security). Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. However, If I can loose my salvation, I can be assured that I am saved right now, if I die right now I can be assured that I am going to heaven because I have not turned my back on God. If I can loose my salvation I can have eternal security. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation.

What are your thoughts?

This text was coppied from God Worshippers

Cajunboy notes::::There is one sin that is "unforgivable;" blasphemy of God's Holy Spirit! That would also apply to what most think of "Once saved, always saved.! One can turn from God again and forever in their lives and that too would be unforgivable in God's eyes. And it would be doubly sinful if the same person would be responsible for turning others away from God, as in some of the "cult" groups/organizations..