traveller Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.49 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2007 OK - here's the deal - I understand that this is a very volatile subject and we're all frustrated over the issues. That does not excuse rudeness or insulting comments. Debate brings out angles and points of view that are good to consider. It's how we learn and grow. You know - the old iron sharpens iron? So - that said - I'm going to open this thread to allow you to continue. Please, keep it civil. If it has to be closed again, it'll end up in the deleted forum. Debate away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2007 An article that has been around for a while but it is one I find acceptable as to what is going on in nature.. Article There have been several debates on the issue in the news and I cannot remember where or when it was but someone was showing how the temperature gages or whatever they are called are not in the approiate places to get accurate data.. Like next to buildings now instead of out away from building like they should have been.. does anyone remember where I may have seen that program?? At any rate..the earth is always going through cycles and it will continue... This is what I believe.... Gen 8:22 While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 An article that has been around for a while but it is one I find acceptable as to what is going on in nature.. Article There have been several debates on the issue in the news and I cannot remember where or when it was but someone was showing how the temperature gages or whatever they are called are not in the approiate places to get accurate data.. Like next to buildings now instead of out away from building like they should have been.. does anyone remember where I may have seen that program?? At any rate..the earth is always going through cycles and it will continue... This is what I believe.... Gen 8:22 While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease." The scientists over at www.realclimate.org addressed the "the temperature gages or whatever they are called are not in the appropriate places to get accurate data.." myth. You can read the article here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archi...sland/#more-454 Essentially, the jest of it is that scientists have long accounted for urban heat islands and anomalies with individual stations, and that global temps are not simply averages of individual stations anyway. Even without any land surface temperature measurements, we still have satellite measurements telling us that the climate is indeed warming at an unprecedented rate, even absent those, we still have proxies that tell us the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Thank you traveller, I appreciate your candor and your wisdom. My husband brought up a point the other day when we were discussing this very subject. Those proponents that are so very worried about Global warming are not really doing their part to help at all. They expect us to recycle, ride our bikes to work, stop using chemicals, and grow everything naturally, yet they are living their HIGH life. The hypocracy that pervaids this subject is so widespread it's hard for those who really care and do what they can to help to have a voice. Just because we are not "worried" about it, which the Bible tells us we should not be, does not mean we don't CARE about it. Ed Bagley Jr. is an environmentalist NUT, but he really does care. AND he practices what he preaches, he lives in a modest house, near where he works so he can ride his bike, recycles and has solar pannels on his roof. That's a guy I could listen to. Not a celeberty that tells me to ride my bike while "she" has a 4000 sq ft climate controlled room for her fur coats! No person that drives an expensive gas guzzling vehicle or has a HUGE expensive house can tell me how to take care of the environment when I live in a small house, drive an economy car and grow many of our own veggies, or buy from roadside stands. I do what I feel God expects of me and the rest I leave up to Him since it's all His anyway, and he will do with it what He wishes. By the way........The sun's sun spots are causing the warmer weather and the Ozone hole is smaller this year than it was last.....just FYI! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 Thank you traveller, I appreciate your candor and your wisdom. My husband brought up a point the other day when we were discussing this very subject. Those proponents that are so very worried about Global warming are not really doing their part to help at all. They expect us to recycle, ride our bikes to work, stop using chemicals, and grow everything naturally, yet they are living their HIGH life. The hypocracy that pervaids this subject is so widespread it's hard for those who really care and do what they can to help to have a voice. I bike to work some days, I recycle, I don't use chemicals when gardening, I compost, and I try to find ways to be as environmentally responsible as I can. The vast majority of conservationists / environmentalists practice what they preach. Just because Al Gore is a hypocrite does not mean that he is wrong about Global Warming. Thats like arguing that since a preacher is a hypocrite that God doesn't exist. Just because we are not "worried" about it, which the Bible tells us we should not be, does not mean we don't CARE about it. Ok wait a second, I would like you to clarify this because it keeps coming up. The way I see it, yes, the world will continue on despite what we do. Humanity could not destroy all life on earth even if we wanted to. However, we certainly can do a great deal of environmental damage that could directly impact many generations to come. Do you not agree with that? Ed Bagley Jr. is an environmentalist NUT, but he really does care. AND he practices what he preaches, he lives in a modest house, near where he works so he can ride his bike, recycles and has solar pannels on his roof. That's a guy I could listen to. Not a celeberty that tells me to ride my bike while "she" has a 4000 sq ft climate controlled room for her fur coats! No person that drives an expensive gas guzzling vehicle or has a HUGE expensive house can tell me how to take care of the environment when I live in a small house, drive an economy car and grow many of our own veggies, or buy from roadside stands. I do what I feel God expects of me and the rest I leave up to Him since it's all His anyway, and he will do with it what He wishes. Then your basically an environmentalist, so why are against them? By the way........The sun's sun spots are causing the warmer weather and the Ozone hole is smaller this year than it was last.....just FYI! The ozone is getting smaller because those horrible environmentalists organized a international crusade that brought about various international treaties banning the use of ozone depleting chemicals. It did not just naturally happen, but rather this is a success of the environmental community. As to sun's spots causing the warmer weather, there is no correlation at all between solar activity and our current and projected warming. Now, just because you have a correlation does not prove causation, but a lack of a correlation definitely disproves causation. No correlation between sun spots and our current warming means that our current warming cannot be the result of sun spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I said global warming doesn't exist because there is not enough evidence to support it, not because there is hypocracy in it. We've only been tracking weather patterns for a short amount of time, how do we know this is not NORMAL? How do we know this is not in God's holy plan for the earth at this time? What evidence do "they" have that it man at all? I am not an environmentalist, I'm just practical and poor. I don't like environmentalists because most of them are hypocrites. Tree hugging wacos who, live in huge [energy sucking] mansions, drive [gas guzzling] SUV's and wear MINK coats. Makes no sence to me. I think environmentalists put to much emphasis on CREATION instead of the CREATOR. What is really important? "He has shown you, oh man, what is good and what the LORD requires of you. To do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6:8) Obviously, we can reverse the damage that has been done. But something I have noticed, "nature" always finds a way. Around Chernoble, it's becoming green and lush and there are animals there, not three headed monkeys or dogs with 7 eyes but normal animals. Even if we do nothing to undo the damage we have done, God will help preserve the earth till it is HIS time to start new. I will always do my part, but I'm not going to run around yelling at everyone around me telling them to do what I am doing. What is it that Romans 14 tells us about food, and causing other's to stumble with our "beliefs"? I believe these verses can be applied to everything we "do" as Christians. 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. Is "global warming" so much more important than the souls of the lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 I said global warming doesn't exist because there is not enough evidence to support it, not because there is hypocracy in it. We've only been tracking weather patterns for a short amount of time, how do we know this is not NORMAL? How do we know this is not in God's holy plan for the earth at this time? What evidence do "they" have that it man at all? 1. There is a massive amount of evidence that earth is warming, and that human activity is largely behind it. 2. Through glacial samples and other proxies we can very accurately reconstruct Global Climate for the last 700,000 years, and beyond that we can still determine trends over a much larger scale. Moreover, we know the causes of past climate swings. Now I have made the case on here many times as to the evidence for Global Warming, so I am not going to do so again. However, The New Scientist has done a great job of doing so, and it should do a good job of answering your questions. Climate change: A guide for the perplexed http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/dn11462 I am not an environmentalist, I'm just practical and poor. I don't like environmentalists because most of them are hypocrites. Tree hugging wacos who, live in huge [energy sucking] mansions, drive [gas guzzling] SUV's and wear MINK coats. Makes no sence to me. I think the problem is that your confusing clueless celebrities looking for a cause to take up, and actual environmentalists. I have known a lot of what I would call environmentalists / conservationists, and none of them lived in mansions, wore mink coats, or lived extravagant lives. If they drove a truck or SUV is it was because they were a wilderness outfitter and needed to haul backpackers or canoes around, and not just as some status symbol to drive the kids around the burbs in. Basically, it seems the picture that you have of environmentalists is like the picture that a lot of people have of evangelical Christians. When a lot of people think of evangelical Christians they think of rich rolex wearing, self-righteous, power hungry televangelists, living off of the phoned in contributions of lonely old people. Of course thats not the case at all, most evangelical Christians are good people doing their best to live a good life and be of service to God and their fellow man. Your looking at some celebrities out there that are latching on to what ever they see as the hip cause and then you must think they represent the environmentalist movement. They don't though, they don't at all. Actual environmentalists dislike those hypocritical celebs as much as you do. I think environmentalists put to much emphasis on CREATION instead of the CREATOR. What is really important? "He has shown you, oh man, what is good and what the LORD requires of you. To do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6:8) The vast, vast majority of environmentalists are not a bunch of rock worshiping wiccans. A lot of them are Christians. They just take their biblical role as stewards and tenants seriously. To care a great deal about the environment does not mean that you worship it. To argue that it does is like saying that pro-lifers worship embryos. Obviously, we can reverse the damage that has been done. But something I have noticed, "nature" always finds a way. Around Chernoble, it's becoming green and lush and there are animals there, not three headed monkeys or dogs with 7 eyes but normal animals. Even if we do nothing to undo the damage we have done, God will help preserve the earth till it is HIS time to start new. I will always do my part, but I'm not going to run around yelling at everyone around me telling them to do what I am doing. Well wait a second. Yes, nature is very, very resilient. Many species around Chernobyl have already evolved some traits to deal with the high radiation levels (such as reaching sexual maturity much earlier due to shorter life spans). However, it will be thousands of years before the area around Chernobyl is habitable by man again. Similarly, say you log an old growth forest. Yes, that forest will regrow. Within 50 years you will have an adolescent forest there again. However, it will take between 300 and a thousand years depending on the forest type before it becomes a true biologically diverse old growth forest again. The goal should be how to live and work in a sustainable fashion where the actions we take now do not adversely effect the environment for generations to come. If we went in and logged the last of the Redwoods, they would eventually grow back (in about a 1000 years), but your kids certainly would not get to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2007 Grace to you, So Forrest, do you think there should be a Global Tax on Carbon? What should we do about all the Carbon being pumped into the envrionment from the raging fires in California? Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 Grace to you, So Forrest, do you think there should be a Global Tax on Carbon? No, I do think though that there will have to be some type of carbon caps. However, more than anything I think there will have to be just a lot of R&D investments in clean energy solutions. If we can put a man on the moon in under 10 years, then certainly we build cleaner energy solutions (and create a lot of good jobs along the way). What should we do about all the Carbon being pumped into the envrionment from the raging fires in California? Peace, Dave Carbon from wildfires is simply taken back in when the forests / brush / grassland regrows. For example, if you burn off a field every spring, the carbon released when you burn it off will simply be taken back in by the grass as it regrows that summer. The problem we have is that we are introducing massive amounts of C02 into the atmosphere that was sequestered in Fossil Fuels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2007 Grace to you, So Forrest, do you think there should be a Global Tax on Carbon? No, I do think though that there will have to be some type of carbon caps. However, more than anything I think there will have to be just a lot of R&D investments in clean energy solutions. If we can put a man on the moon in under 10 years, then certainly we build cleaner energy solutions (and create a lot of good jobs along the way). What should we do about all the Carbon being pumped into the envrionment from the raging fires in California? Peace, Dave Carbon from wildfires is simply taken back in when the forests / brush / grassland regrows. For example, if you burn off a field every spring, the carbon released when you burn it off will simply be taken back in by the grass as it regrows that summer. The problem we have is that we are introducing massive amounts of C02 into the atmosphere that was sequestered in Fossil Fuels. Forrest, So you would speculate that natural carbon like from wildfires and volcano's are dealt with naturally by the Creation. Yet carbon that exists in nature and the Creation when burned by the activity of humans would be foreign to the Creation. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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