The Jewishness of Jesus and the Loss of the Sacred Writings

[systemstrike_7]

First of all, I want to thank you for the response. I see you are new here and I hope you're enjoying it.

Jesus came her to teach all that would listen, but as pointed out his focus was on the Jewish Community, and I'll explain why. The Jews have always been Gods Choosen people. Christ was focusing on the Jewish people because they were the ones that were supposed to spread christ message of hope and salvation after his death. The problem was that at the time the Jews though he had been sent to basically become King and to push the Romes back out of Iseral. They didn't understand at the time that his Kingdom was not an earthly Kingdom but a Heavenly Kingdom. This is why the Jews during the passover were shouting for Joy and what not, because they though he was about to be King, but then a few days later he was captured and hung on the cross, and at this point the people realize that Jesus wasn't going to be King, and thus the mocked him.

Jesus help Gentiles and Jewish people alike, there many passages in bible of him helping Gentiles. He wasn't Hesitant in preaching to Gentiles because his message was for every one, Jewish and Gentile alike.

You say the Jews did not spread the word of Christ, but I'm going to disagree with you there. All of Christ's disciples were Jewish. Paul was also a Jew. The Jerusalem Church was the heart and soul of "Christianity". In all actuality, the Jews were responsible for spreading the message of Christ. The Jews did it the right way. They spread His message of Love with compassion and understanding. After the pagans took over the religion in the 5th and 6th centuries, the message of Christ was spread by fear and domination, not to mention it was changed on many levels. Mary became a perpetual virgin and almost a divinity, Jewish holidays were replaced by pagan festivals with Jesus' name on them, and the Holy Sabbath day which was sanctified by God Himself was changed. The Sabbath is a Commandment from God; one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

I am gone answer this but not in the way you want. The first thing you have to understand is Christ is Lord and Savior, you can not get in to heaven except through him, by believing in him and following his teachings. Anything that differs from Christ Teachings is a false Religeon. We are to obey the Teachings of Christ and to put are faith in him, pure and simple.

If you do anything that differs from what Christ has taught then you are disobeying God. Christ didn't disagree with a lot of the laws of the Pharesees, what he disagreed with was two things. The first is how the Pharesees would say one thing and do another, they weren't practicing what they teach. The second was that they either were take the laws of God (10 commandments) and following them to the letter of the law, and what they didn't understand was that in following them to the letter they were also disobeying them, all the other laws they had built on top of that were fine and dandy except that in the process that they had forgotten that biggest thing to do was to help others, to show mercy and compassion to people, it was to love one another.

Now what this means is that you have to examine what your being told, with the Word of God, or to point the Teachings of Christ, if the things your taught or what you practice conflict with the Teachings of Christ then your disobeying god. There is flat out no other way to get in to heaven except through the Blood of Jesus Christ, through are faith in him. Yet this also means we must Obey his teachings as well. It doesn't mean we won't mess up and make mistakes because we will but Christ will Forgive use if we Repent.

Anything that does not go against his teachings or hinder your faith in him is ok. You have to examin the Torah (which is Jewish bible if I'm not mistaken) does it Teach that Christ is the Messiah, is he your Lord and Savior. What are his teachings and do you follow them. The basic principle of his teachings is that were to obey the 1o Commandments, not only in action but in thought as well, we also need to look at the int of those Laws. For example Adultry is a Sin, however just looking at a Women in Lust is a sin.

I don't know much about the Torah, nor Catholism or much outside basic Christan denominations. However I do believe that as long as they teach the same message as what Christ taught, and that you have faith that Christ is Lord and Savoir and only through him are your sins forgiven and you will be able to go to heaven , then anything else doesn't matter, it just following different standered of practice.

I hope that makes sense, im not really good with words and what not.

The center of Jesus' teaching was love. But He also taught under the implication of his Jewishness. The gospel writers didn't have to tell the reader that Jesus followed the Torah, or that he observed the festivals. People keep saying that the Torah wasn't for everyone, but that is a huge mistake. The Torah is for everyone who wants to be obedient to God. Here is how it works, and you will see this in the story of Abraham our father: Faith leads to righteousness; Obedience leads to blessings. Abraham was righteous through his faith, and he was blessed through his obedience. Faith without works is dead and works without faith is misguided.

[systemstrike_7]

What it says is those who fail to be circumcised would be cut off from Israel. God promised that disobedience would cause the children of Israel to be exiled from their Land. Your problem here is that you oversimplifying the issue, and are trying to universalize the particular when it comes to Torah observance. You are working from the false assumption that all the commandments were given to everybody, and the Bible does not teach that. The circumcision was given as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant between God and the Jewish people. The Sabbath was also given a sign of the Mosaic covenant between God and the Jewish people. The same follows for the other rituals. Not everything in the Bible was given to every person.

Then where is this bible for the gentiles? False assumption? What assumption are you speaking of? The Torah tells us that whoever should be obedient to God should follow the Laws that were sanctified by God. I think that Christian theology has oversimplified things. Grace is not a concept for the New Testament alone, but to rely on Grace alone is simply foolish. The Torah teaches no such thing, and neither did Jesus. These covenants were given to the descendants of Moses and Abraham and Noah, you are right about that. But in no way does that undermine the authority of those covenants. The Jews are a people of the Book. Christians claim the same thing, but they have thrown out that very book that they claim to abide to.

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Jesus purposes in His first coming was to save mankind from their sin, but His earthly ministry was to house of Israel. That was His will and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm arguing that we should be grafted into the House of Israel. If the Jewish nation were to all accept Christ at some point, they would not be able to live with our theology. They would be appalled at the way we have misread and misused the Law of God.

QUOTE

And the Bible is not good enough for you. Two men hardly form a scholarly "consensus." What makes them "leading" Christian Scholars?

The Bible is good enough for me, but I want to understand the Bible. That is merely two of them. I'm not going to give you a list of all the scholars who would agree with me. They are leading Christian scholars because they are honest and do their research without bias. If you were to read one of their studies, you would see that they make no assumptions and base their conclusions on fact alone. They throw out the theology behind what is written and just stick to the historicity of what is being said. Also, they are believers.

QUOTE

Yes, but Luke interviewed eyewitnesses. He spoke to people who witnessed the life of Jesus first hand. And how do you know that Luke did not have written material to work from? How do you "know?" Did they not write history in that day and age?

The rolling your eyes business was really cute. Anyway, as I said before, those eyewitnesses would be recalling something that happened 2-3 decades prior to the interview. Actually, Luke probably did have written material to work from, but how reliable are those documents? Who wrote them? Where did they come from? What biases did Luke have? Was his own theology intertwined in his writing? There are just too many unknowns to deal with. And it is agreed that the early believers believed that they didn't need to record the life of Jesus because they thought He was going to return at any minute (as does every generation).

QUOTE

So you do not really "know." Again, you are working from the assumption that Luke had nothing reliable to work from, but you are going to have a hard time supporting that assumption.

I never said he had "nothing" reliable to work from, I said that it would be difficult for him to accurately record the life of Jesus and the acts of the apostles with a hundred percent accuracy. And it is agreed that Luke and Matthew used Mark as their main source. So it really comes down to the authenticity of Mark. And please stop it with the whole "do you know?" business because you are simply playing the "flying spagetti monster" argument. Since I'm not completely sure, does that mean I should just believe it to be true or should I believe it to be false? Well I have chosen to start from the ground and work my way up. If God is real, then I should find Him sooner or later.

What a crock. It was the Gentiles who broke away from the Jews. Secondly, where you do get the silly notion that the Jerusalem church became the "heretic" church??

Either way, Jewish Christianity became the minority. After the Roman Empire became a Christian state, they deemed the Jewish Christians as heretics. Anyone who did not completely agree with the Nicean Creed was deemed a heretic. That silly little creed was put together by silly little men. I mean, where in the Bible does it ever refer to a Trinity? It speaks of God's spirit, and Jesus who is God, but never of three separate entities. Yahweh told us that He is the only God. Period.

God in the New Testament is no different than God in the Old Testament. There is no inconsistency. As for God grieving that He made created man... It does not say that God was displeased with Himself. You are assigning a value to God that is not in the Bible.

There is no inconsistency in the New Testament, but Christians have made the inconsistency by oversimplifying and misreading the entire Bible. What happened to Yahweh? He was a God who had picnics with Abraham, walked in the Garden with Adam, plagued an entire nation, closed the ark for Noah, and wrestled with Jacob. Why has God disappeared? Why does God not show his might as He loved to do before? Why this sudden change in personality? If he was upset that He made man, then that means he regretted making man. I don't think you can get around that one. If you buy a shirt and then you don't like it, that means you were upset that you bought it and that you regret buying it. But I will not argue over that, simply because Yahweh is much too complicated a God for me to figure out.

[PreciousRubi]

......God did not intend for everyone to everything the Jews did. The Festivals, the sacrifices, the priesthood, everything that God gave to the children of Israel was to separate them from the nations, to make them distinctive from the other surrounding cultures.

The things God gave to Israel are to be object lessons for us, not necessarily a matter practice where the rituals and ceremonies are concerned. It is just not as simply a picking any verse in the Bible and try to make it applicable to you. That can create some really messed up theology, let me tell you.

While the moral/ethical aspects of the Law are universal, the entire law is not universal and it is incorrect, theologically, to make them such.

Secondly as far as creating a separate religion from Judaism is concerned... What you need to learn is that the religion of the Old Testament was not Judaism which we are familiar with. Judaism, as we know it, is an adjustment to the destruction of the Temple. Judaism did not exist as a religion prior to 70 A.D. Neither Jesus nor Paul practiced Judaism as we know it today. While many of the traditions still exist, the religion of Old Testament Israel until 70 A.D. centered around the Temple.

How do you reconcile the passage in 1 Corinthians when paul tells these gentile converts in chapter 5:7.....For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

And when Yeshua tells his disciples that He will not partake of the cup (passover) until He is with them in the Kingdom.

Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

PR

[mr1975]

You say the Jews did not spread the word of Christ, but I'm going to disagree with you there. All of Christ's disciples were Jewish. Paul was also a Jew. The Jerusalem Church was the heart and soul of "Christianity". In all actuality, the Jews were responsible for spreading the message of Christ. The Jews did it the right way. They spread His message of Love with compassion and understanding. Mary became a perpetual virgin and almost a divinity, Jewish holidays were replaced by pagan festivals with Jesus' name on them, and the Holy Sabbath day which was sanctified by God Himself was changed. The Sabbath is a Commandment from God; one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

I never said they didn't spread his message, I said that at the time the Jews misunderstood what Christ came here to do. They though he was to become King of Iseral and drive the Romes out. However this is not what he came to do, and it wasn't untill after he died and was raised that the full implications of what he had been sent here to do were suddenly realized.

I never said the Jews didn't spread his word, only that the reason his ministery focused on the Jews over the Gentiles was because God wanted the Jews to spread the Word of God.

After the pagans took over the religion in the 5th and 6th centuries, the message of Christ was spread by fear and domination, not to mention it was changed on many levels

This is true and it still that way to this day. There christans that take the word of God and focus so much on hell in the hopes of driving a sense of Fear in to the hearts of Non Believers. However if one reads the Bible Christ didn't use fear of hell to convert people, he talked about hell and said that this is were people would go if they didn't repent there sins and turn back to God, but he didn't beat them over the head with it.

However the bible has not changed at all sense it was first writen, the books are as close to there original text as your going to get. The original Text started off in Hebrew, then to greek and finally to english. When the text were being translated in to the various formates God made sure the Translation was done right. Now how do we know this, well look at the christan bible, it is the most published book in the world, out selling even the Torah. Its has survived Kings, Queens, Dictators who have tried to stamp out the bible and yet it still survives to this day, to me the only way that could happen is by the Hand of God him self.

Mary became a perpetual virgin and almost a divinity, Jewish holidays were replaced by pagan festivals with Jesus' name on them,

The Catholic Church is the only religieous group out there that has raised Mary to almost a Divinity in to it self, and I agree with you this is wrong. Yes Mary was a Virgin when she gave birth to Christ, but she was no different then you or I. I have never agree with the Catholic church on the perspective of Mary, I have always felt they put to much focus on Mary and the saints and not enough on christ. However I will also admit that my knowledge of the Catholic Church is limited.

Yes your right there festivals that have mengled with pegan religeons, Christmas would be a good example of this. Should Christans Celebrate Christmas, well I don't see anything wrong with it as long as they understand and keep the Focus on Christ and his Birth, anything else that conflicts with Christ teachings should be removed, such as Miseltoes. Somethings like Santa Clause are in my opinion harmless fun because the very idea of Santa Clause is very much in line with Teachings of Christ, giving to one another with no thought of anything in return, loving one another, peace and joy...are these not the very things Christ taught. We should keep the mean of Christmas in are hearts every day. I see no problem with Christans Celebrating it. Jewish people Celebrate the Birth of Christ in there own way as well.

We won't get in to Easter cause I have never understood the whole Rabbit deal in regards to Ressurection of Christ.

and the Holy Sabbath day which was sanctified by God Himself was changed. The Sabbath is a Commandment from God; one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

I can't speak for every Christan out there, but can speak for my self. I work as a Security Guard and though right now I have saturdays and Sundays off but there will come a time when I won't have Sunday off. Which means I will have to work. Now I can fit going to Church and worshiping God in on Sunday. However I will still have to go to work, so am I breaking the Sabbath, the answer to that is no.

In bible Christ and his Disciples were picking wheat from a field so that they can eat. When Pharasees saw this they question Christ why they were doing what was unlawful on Sabbath. This is how Christ Responds back.

"Haven't you read what David did when he and his Companions were Hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread - which was not lawful for them to do, Or haven't you read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater then the Temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Now what this tells me is many things, we are supposed to help are fellow man, were supposed to show kindness, mercy, love, were supposed to feed the poor, cloth them, were supposed to heal the sick and the wounded both of the mind and of the body but most importantly of the soul.

It also means something else that we can work in order to feed are selves. Now days things are different, we work to make money to provided for our selves, so we can eat, cloth and to put a roof over are heads. Now If I have to go in to work on a Sunday I can still honor the Sabbath by going to church, by working am still honor the Sabbath because I am working to provided food for my self. Remember what Christ said, "I desire Mercy, Not Sacrifice".

Now the point am making is that costumes may differ from one christan belief to another, but at the heart of all those beliefs the Teachings of Christ are same. Christ didn't say the Torah is right or make claims that one practice was more true then the other because it didn't matter. His teaching apply to every one, to Jews and Gentiles alike. Christans follow Christ Teachings, maybe we don't follow the Cermonal acts that Jewish people follow but we do follow his teachings, and that is what is important.

People spend so much time debating that Torah is right or that Catholism is right or Christanity is right that they all ready disobeying Christ teachings. Christ gave one message and one message only. They apply for every one, Jews and Gentiles alike. Instead of focusing on the differences you should be focusing on what Christ taught, you said it your self Christ taught love and compassion which is the same the Christan bible, and is the very heart of everything he taught.

I hope that clears up some things.

[Smalcald]

But the bottom line is you have to know who Jesus is before you can even have the conversation.

Jesus was crucified for blaspheme, claiming to be equal to God. In fact He said "before Abraham was I AM". He also claimed to have been with God at creation. So either we are pagan polytheists, or we believe that Jesus IS God and man at the same time. We can't pray to some sort of "lesser" Messiah we can only pray to God.

The reason Christ came was to forgive our sins. But only God can forgive sins.

But systemstrike, I will pray that the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to you, as I believe He is already working in you. You would not care about God or Christ if the Holy Spirit was not already working in you. We certainly disagree on the Trinity and who Christ is and the importance of the whole bible including the New Testament, which containing the Gospel I believe is the reason for the Torah. Anyway continue on your journey is all I can say.

[systemstrike_7]

I never said they didn't spread his message, I said that at the time the Jews misunderstood what Christ came here to do. They though he was to become King of Iseral and drive the Romes out. However this is not what he came to do, and it wasn't untill after he died and was raised that the full implications of what he had been sent here to do were suddenly realized.

But this isn't true of His apostles. They led the Church (specifically His brother James) after He ascended to Heaven. They led the missions and spread His word to thousands of people.

I never said the Jews didn't spread his word, only that the reason his ministery focused on the Jews over the Gentiles was because God wanted the Jews to spread the Word of God.

Was Jesus not omniscient? Did He not know that the Gentiles would later take over His ministry and pracatically destroy it?

This is true and it still that way to this day. There christans that take the word of God and focus so much on hell in the hopes of driving a sense of Fear in to the hearts of Non Believers. However if one reads the Bible Christ didn't use fear of hell to convert people, he talked about hell and said that this is were people would go if they didn't repent there sins and turn back to God, but he didn't beat them over the head with it.

However the bible has not changed at all sense it was first writen, the books are as close to there original text as your going to get. The original Text started off in Hebrew, then to greek and finally to english. When the text were being translated in to the various formates God made sure the Translation was done right. Now how do we know this, well look at the christan bible, it is the most published book in the world, out selling even the Torah. Its has survived Kings, Queens, Dictators who have tried to stamp out the bible and yet it still survives to this day, to me the only way that could happen is by the Hand of God him self.

The New Testament was never written in Hebrew. It was originally in Greek. And I don't think you fully understand how tedious the translation process was. It was all done by hand and it was done by scribes who, during the first few centuries, weren't professionals at what they did. They were prone to carelessness and sometimes they blatantly changed it. This can be seen by the copies found through archaeology. You will be hard-pressed to find two documents that resemble each other 100 percent.

The Catholic Church is the only religieous group out there that has raised Mary to almost a Divinity in to it self, and I agree with you this is wrong. Yes Mary was a Virgin when she gave birth to Christ, but she was no different then you or I. I have never agree with the Catholic church on the perspective of Mary, I have always felt they put to much focus on Mary and the saints and not enough on christ. However I will also admit that my knowledge of the Catholic Church is limited.

Yes your right there festivals that have mengled with pegan religeons, Christmas would be a good example of this. Should Christans Celebrate Christmas, well I don't see anything wrong with it as long as they understand and keep the Focus on Christ and his Birth, anything else that conflicts with Christ teachings should be removed, such as Miseltoes. Somethings like Santa Clause are in my opinion harmless fun because the very idea of Santa Clause is very much in line with Teachings of Christ, giving to one another with no thought of anything in return, loving one another, peace and joy...are these not the very things Christ taught. We should keep the mean of Christmas in are hearts every day. I see no problem with Christans Celebrating it. Jewish people Celebrate the Birth of Christ in there own way as well.

We won't get in to Easter cause I have never understood the whole Rabbit deal in regards to Ressurection of Christ.

I'm not speaking of the ways in which we celebrate these holidays. The fact of the matter is that Constantine combined pagan mythology with the Grace of Christianity.

I can't speak for every Christan out there, but can speak for my self. I work as a Security Guard and though right now I have saturdays and Sundays off but there will come a time when I won't have Sunday off. Which means I will have to work. Now I can fit going to Church and worshiping God in on Sunday. However I will still have to go to work, so am I breaking the Sabbath, the answer to that is no.

In bible Christ and his Disciples were picking wheat from a field so that they can eat. When Pharasees saw this they question Christ why they were doing what was unlawful on Sabbath. This is how Christ Responds back.

"Haven't you read what David did when he and his Companions were Hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread - which was not lawful for them to do, Or haven't you read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater then the Temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Now what this tells me is many things, we are supposed to help are fellow man, were supposed to show kindness, mercy, love, were supposed to feed the poor, cloth them, were supposed to heal the sick and the wounded both of the mind and of the body but most importantly of the soul.

It also means something else that we can work in order to feed are selves. Now days things are different, we work to make money to provided for our selves, so we can eat, cloth and to put a roof over are heads. Now If I have to go in to work on a Sunday I can still honor the Sabbath by going to church, by working am still honor the Sabbath because I am working to provided food for my self. Remember what Christ said, "I desire Mercy, Not Sacrifice".

Now the point am making is that costumes may differ from one christan belief to another, but at the heart of all those beliefs the Teachings of Christ are same. Christ didn't say the Torah is right or make claims that one practice was more true then the other because it didn't matter. His teaching apply to every one, to Jews and Gentiles alike. Christans follow Christ Teachings, maybe we don't follow the Cermonal acts that Jewish people follow but we do follow his teachings, and that is what is important.

People spend so much time debating that Torah is right or that Catholism is right or Christanity is right that they all ready disobeying Christ teachings. Christ gave one message and one message only. They apply for every one, Jews and Gentiles alike. Instead of focusing on the differences you should be focusing on what Christ taught, you said it your self Christ taught love and compassion which is the same the Christan bible, and is the very heart of everything he taught.

I hope that clears up some things.

You seem to think I'm talking about working on the Sabbath. But that isn't what I'm talking about. The Sabbath is supposed to be on Saturday. Saturday is the seventh day, not Sunday. When Constantine made Christianity the state religion, he changed the Sabbath day to Sunday because that was the pagan day of worship. Note "Sun"day.

But you have a good understanding of the foundational message of Christ. His message was Love. As He said, the greatest commandment was love your neighbor as yourself.

[systemstrike_7]

But the bottom line is you have to know who Jesus is before you can even have the conversation.

Jesus was crucified for blaspheme, claiming to be equal to God. In fact He said "before Abraham was I AM". He also claimed to have been with God at creation. So either we are pagan polytheists, or we believe that Jesus IS God and man at the same time. We can't pray to some sort of "lesser" Messiah we can only pray to God.

The reason Christ came was to forgive our sins. But only God can forgive sins.

But systemstrike, I will pray that the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to you, as I believe He is already working in you. You would not care about God or Christ if the Holy Spirit was not already working in you. We certainly disagree on the Trinity and who Christ is and the importance of the whole bible including the New Testament, which containing the Gospel I believe is the reason for the Torah. Anyway continue on your journey is all I can say.

What you say is true. God is Jesus. Jesus is God. They are one in the same. So why the Trinity? Why must we be so complicated about it? But thank you for your prayers, they are much appreciated.

[Smalcald]

What you say is true. God is Jesus. Jesus is God. They are one in the same. So why the Trinity? Why must we be so complicated about it? But thank you for your prayers, they are much appreciated.

Hi Systemstrike, I agree the Trinity is complex, in fact nobody can really understand it, for me it is mystery. Fully man, fully God? The reason I believe it is the true nature of God is simply becuase as we both agree that God is Jesus, we also have this third person, this "Helper" as Christ calls Him. But the problem is Christ also says it is a very big deal to Blaspheme against this Helper, but how could we blaspheme something that is not God in the way Jesus is speaking about it?

But Kempis said it is more important to be pleasing to the Trinity, than to know how to define the Trinity. Sometimes it seems doctrine could get in the way of our faith in Christ, I don't think it should.

PS (You mentioned you were looking for the Holy Spirit, I don't believe you could have said that "God is Jesus" without the Holy Spirit, so in my opinion the Holy Spirit has already found you!)

[mr1975]

But this isn't true of His apostles. They led the Church (specifically His brother James) after He ascended to Heaven. They led the missions and spread His word to thousands of people.

This is true but it wasn't untill after his Ressurection that they truely fully realized what he was sent here to do. When they saw him alive and well he commanded them to go forward and to continue were he left off, to make disciples of men. However at the time, the Jewish people had preconsived notions of what Christ was sent here to do. They really though he would become King of Iseral and run the Romans out. When he was captured they realized this wasn't going to happen, and it is part of the reason they mocked him. Even his own Disciples ran out on him as he said they would do. Once he was dead and Ressurected they fully understand what he had been trying to tell them before his death. Even after his Ressurection they didn't believe that it was him, till they saw the holes in his wrist and his feet, then they completely understood, that he was there to save them from there sins, that his Kingdom was in Heaven not on Earth.

Was Jesus not omniscient? Did He not know that the Gentiles would later take over His ministry and pracatically destroy it?

The Gentiles didn't destroy his Ministry, no one can destroy his Ministry. His words are true today as they were 2 thousand years ago. Just because some people take his teachings and distort it or change it to fit there own purpose doesn't make his teachings less true.

I follow Christ Teachings pure simple, I read and learn what he has to say. Anything that conterdicts his teachings I ignore.

The New Testament was never written in Hebrew. It was originally in Greek. And I don't think you fully understand how tedious the translation process was. It was all done by hand and it was done by scribes who, during the first few centuries, weren't professionals at what they did. They were prone to carelessness and sometimes they blatantly changed it. This can be seen by the copies found through archaeology. You will be hard-pressed to find two documents that resemble each other 100 percent.

Here is the thing my friend, your moving God from the picture. Your saying that the Christan Bible is incorrect because you can show evidence that points to that. Well what you don't get is that the samething can be said about the Torah. I'm sure there many intellagent people in the world that can point out the flaws in Torah and have evidence to back it up, but does this prove that the Torah is incorrect, no. Do you want to know why, because if you remove God from the picture then Torah was writen by man, and there fore it is incorrect, but you don't believe that. You can't prove that the Torah is correct, you can only have faith that the Torah is correct.

Archaeologist have spent years trying to dispprove the Christan Bible, and yet they have not been able to find a shred of proof the discredits the bible. Every single bit of Evidence of historical events that have been uncovered in those times matches up with what the bible says, thus proving its credibility. You can denie it and kick and scream but it is simple truth.

Understand I don't say the Torah is incorrect and that Christanity is correct. I don't know much about the Torah, only certain things. I know that the Messages of Christ are the same, I know that both Teach Christ was the Messiah, both Teach that Christ is Lord and Savior, that we can only get to Heaven through him. As far as I know any way.

So then how do we know what to follow? Well its simple, you follow the Teachings of Christ. Christ him self was asked what is the most important Law and he responded by saying "'Love the Lord Your God with All Your Heart and with All your Soul and with all your Mind' this is the first and greatest commandment. And the Second is like it: 'Love your Neighbor as your self'. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

That is everything he taught in a nut shell. Now granted there are more details of course to his teachings but if you obey those two commandments completely then your more then likely going to obey all the rest, this does not mean we don't have to learn the other commandments because we do. However both the Torah and Christan Bible teach those commandments, now any teachings or whatever that conterdict those commandments, is not from Christ and there fore should be Ignored.

I'm not speaking of the ways in which we celebrate these holidays. The fact of the matter is that Constantine combined pagan mythology with the Grace of Christianity.

Which Bible are you reading, cause this not in the Christan Bible at all. I have never seen anything in the bible that leads me to believe any thing in regards to your statement.

You seem to think I'm talking about working on the Sabbath. But that isn't what I'm talking about. The Sabbath is supposed to be on Saturday. Saturday is the seventh day, not Sunday. When Constantine made Christianity the state religion, he changed the Sabbath day to Sunday because that was the pagan day of worship. Note "Sun"day.

I don't know how to respond to this other then to say that your making the same mistake that Pharasees made. The Pharasees were so intent on obeying the letter of the law that they forgot about the intent of the law.

So the letter of the Law here is were to honor the Sabbath day, but what is the intent in the Law. Well it is a time for people to come together and worship God, to take a day of rest, it is a day to learn about the Lord and to find strength and encourgement from other believers. Becareful of trying to follow the letter of the law that you miss the intent of the Law.

I personally don't think Christ would have a problem with people honor the Sabbath on Sunday as opposed to Saturday. I think as long as there honoring it is what matters in the long run.

Don't get me wrong I have no problems with people who Honor the Sabbath on Saturday instead of Sunday. I think the reason Christan choose to honor the Sabbath on Sunday instead of Saturday is because in it we honor his death and Ressurection year round. Remember Christ was Cruxsified on Friday and was ressurected on Sunday. I think that is the reason it has been changed from Saturday to Sunday.

Also go out and try and find a Christan Church that meets on Saturday, so are choices are bit limited. hehe

[systemstrike_7]

This is true but it wasn't untill after his Ressurection that they truely fully realized what he was sent here to do. When they saw him alive and well he commanded them to go forward and to continue were he left off, to make disciples of men. However at the time, the Jewish people had preconsived notions of what Christ was sent here to do. They really though he would become King of Iseral and run the Romans out. When he was captured they realized this wasn't going to happen, and it is part of the reason they mocked him. Even his own Disciples ran out on him as he said they would do. Once he was dead and Ressurected they fully understand what he had been trying to tell them before his death. Even after his Ressurection they didn't believe that it was him, till they saw the holes in his wrist and his feet, then they completely understood, that he was there to save them from there sins, that his Kingdom was in Heaven not on Earth.

Ok, I think we are running in circles with this. I believe we had a misunderstanding. I believe that His disciples, who were very much Jewish (Paul was a Pharisee, and James probably was too), took His message to the people. I think we agree on this. So we shall put it behind us.

The Gentiles didn't destroy his Ministry, no one can destroy his Ministry. His words are true today as they were 2 thousand years ago. Just because some people take his teachings and distort it or change it to fit there own purpose doesn't make his teachings less true.

I know, but what I meant was that they destroyed His ministry by distorting and changing the words He said. We could get into a whole different debate about the presence of theological agendas inside the gospels, but we won't go there.

Here is the thing my friend, your moving God from the picture. Your saying that the Christan Bible is incorrect because you can show evidence that points to that. Well what you don't get is that the samething can be said about the Torah. I'm sure there many intellagent people in the world that can point out the flaws in Torah and have evidence to back it up, but does this prove that the Torah is incorrect, no. Do you want to know why, because if you remove God from the picture then Torah was writen by man, and there fore it is incorrect, but you don't believe that. You can't prove that the Torah is correct, you can only have faith that the Torah is correct.

Archaeologist have spent years trying to dispprove the Christan Bible, and yet they have not been able to find a shred of proof the discredits the bible. Every single bit of Evidence of historical events that have been uncovered in those times matches up with what the bible says, thus proving its credibility. You can denie it and kick and scream but it is simple truth.

Understand I don't say the Torah is incorrect and that Christanity is correct. I don't know much about the Torah, only certain things. I know that the Messages of Christ are the same, I know that both Teach Christ was the Messiah, both Teach that Christ is Lord and Savior, that we can only get to Heaven through him. As far as I know any way.

So then how do we know what to follow? Well its simple, you follow the Teachings of Christ. Christ him self was asked what is the most important Law and he responded by saying "'Love the Lord Your God with All Your Heart and with All your Soul and with all your Mind' this is the first and greatest commandment. And the Second is like it: 'Love your Neighbor as your self'. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

That is everything he taught in a nut shell. Now granted there are more details of course to his teachings but if you obey those two commandments completely then your more then likely going to obey all the rest, this does not mean we don't have to learn the other commandments because we do. However both the Torah and Christan Bible teach those commandments, now any teachings or whatever that conterdict those commandments, is not from Christ and there fore should be Ignored.

I'm not taking God out of the picture, I'm just not going to use Him as a scape-goat. There are inerrancies in the New and Old Testament. It is that simple. And I understand that no archaeological dig has contradicted the Bible, and I find that absolutely fascinating. I have found some pretty amazing things concerning the Exodus and such. But we won't get into that either.

Which Bible are you reading, cause this not in the Christan Bible at all. I have never seen anything in the bible that leads me to believe any thing in regards to your statement.

Exactly! That is exactly what I'm saying! These pagan holidays were not scriptural! Jesus was not born on December 25th and Jesus never said that it was okay to change the Holy Sabbath Day. If you say you are so adament about following Jesus' words alone, then where did you get the idea it was ok to do such things?

I don't know how to respond to this other then to say that your making the same mistake that Pharasees made. The Pharasees were so intent on obeying the letter of the law that they forgot about the intent of the law.

So my mistake is by obeying God's commandment? Yes, don't forget about the intent of the law, but it was made that way for a reason. God did not "rest" on the first day, He "rested" on the seventh day. He told us to keep the Sabbath as a Holy Day of rest, plain and simple.

So the letter of the Law here is were to honor the Sabbath day, but what is the intent in the Law. Well it is a time for people to come together and worship God, to take a day of rest, it is a day to learn about the Lord and to find strength and encourgement from other believers. Becareful of trying to follow the letter of the law that you miss the intent of the Law.

Again, I'm not missing the intent, Christians are apparently ignoring the words of God.

I personally don't think Christ would have a problem with people honor the Sabbath on Sunday as opposed to Saturday. I think as long as there honoring it is what matters in the long run.

And many people think Christ would have been okay with abortion, but that doesn't make abortion right.

Don't get me wrong I have no problems with people who Honor the Sabbath on Saturday instead of Sunday. I think the reason Christan choose to honor the Sabbath on Sunday instead of Saturday is because in it we honor his death and Ressurection year round. Remember Christ was Cruxsified on Friday and was ressurected on Sunday. I think that is the reason it has been changed from Saturday to Sunday.

Also go out and try and find a Christan Church that meets on Saturday, so are choices are bit limited. hehe

Who said Christ was crucified on Friday and rose Sunday? You won't find that in the Gospels. That was a Catholic invention. And Christ Himself said He would be in the center of the Earth for 3 days and 3 nights. If He died on Friday and rose on Sunday, that would only be 2 nights and maybe 2 days.

Well, maybe it is time we reconsider this age-old tradition. Maybe it is time we start "resting" on the seventh day and not the first.