Eschatology

[Guest LCPGUY]

Thank you jmwhalen for your kind and informative posts.

I gave up trying to discuss anything with this pre-wrath crowd when I saw how mean spirited they "appear" to be. They call others that disagree with them all manner of names. They make accusatory and condescending remarks about all who disagree with them.

I used Google to find out more about their belief (post-trib, pre-wrath). I found out it came into being in the 1970's. Before then, no one had ever even heard of this doctrine.

Your brother in Christ,

John

[Guest zhavoney]

xyz

[jmwhalen]

Zhavoney writes:

"I have not given you an argument or an opinion.

HERE is an opinion.

I have read and understand everything that you wrote.

You proclaim a gospel that is so mysterious that it removes CHRIST from his seat and inserts brother paul. and yet brother pauls gospel is simple, understandable and points only to CHRIST.

You have made the old scofield group look like amatures in confounding the gospel of CHRIST.

Good luck in getting Christ to turn back what is really comming. because you beleive this, as you call it, nonsence

19, Nevertheless the solid foundation of GOD stands, having this seal; THE LORD KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE HIS AND LET EVERYONE WHO NAMES THE NAME OF CHRIST DEPART FROM INIQUITY. "

________________________

"...confounding the gospel of Christ...."?

Apparently, you do not know the gospel of the grace of God(Acts 20:24), "the gospel of Christ"(Romans 1:16), confusing it with the gospel of the kingdom, because you fail to rightly divide the word of truth.

Apparently you have not read Eph. 6:19:

"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel..."

The term "gospel"-the term "THE GOSPEL" needs to be qualified within its dispensational setting. Paul was commissioned to preach the gospel of the grace of God, the gospel of Christ, that was revealed to him from the risen, ascended, glorified, Lord Jesus Christ from heaven by revelation. This was his calling from the Lord Jesus Christ. And this is the only "good news" that will save you from the penalty, power, and presence from sin(salvation and justification, sanctification, glorification). This gospel is summarized in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. But this is not "the gospel of the kingdom"-these are not equivalent or synonymous.

The Lord Jesus Christ during his earthly ministry, the apostles, and the disciples all preached "the gospel of the kingdom". "Gospel" means "good news", but there is more than one "gospel" in scripture, and the confusion in Christianity results from the failure to understand the absolute necessity of "rightly dividing the word of truth"(2 Tim. 2:15), mainly failing to distinguish between the prophetic program as revealed in the Old Testament, and the Mystery Program that was revealed to Paul.

Nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John will you find 1 Cor. 15;1-4 being preached as the "good news", the basis for our salvation and justification. Nowhere.

According to the New Testament, everyone but the disciples understood that the Lord Jesus Christ was suppose to rise from the dead on the third day. The people, priests, the Pharisees and the Romans all knew and even took precautions to prevent his followers from stealing the body and claiming he had risen:

"Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first." Matthew 27:62-64

Consider this. You cannot preach what you do not know. You cannot believe that which you do not know.

During the Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, the apostles and disciples had no knowledge of his impending, death, burial, and resurrection:

"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" Mt. 16:21,22

" And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry." Matthew 17:22,23

"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Mark 8:31,32

(Comment: Obviously, Peter was attempting to prevent the Lord's death! If the death, burial, and resurrection was the grounds for Peter's salvation and justification(as Paul expounds on in his epistles), why was Peter trying to prevent the very thing that would be the basis for his justification? And why would they be "exceeding sorry"? After all, this would be the basis of their salvation, right? See also John 18:10. Did Peter ever preach 1 Cor. 15:1-4 in Mt., Mark, Luke, John?? If he had, his rebuke of the Lord would be a non-sensical reaction!)

"For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." Mark 9:31,32

"Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34

"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day...." Luke 24:45,46

"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." John 20:9

(Comment: Notice they did not know it or understand it prior to His death! They were not preaching 1 Cor. 15:1-4).

Even after the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, they intially did not believe it:

"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Mt. 28:17

"And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." Mark 16:11-14

"And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not." Luke 24:9-11

" And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?" Luke 24:41

It is a prevalent but erroneous view that there is only one gospel in scripture. The fact that the message of the cross is not part of the "gospel of the kingdom" does not mean that the Lord Jesus Christ's death was not the critical event. And no one has ever been, nor ever will be, saved apart from the death, burial and resurrection. But it is an entirely different matter to say that it was the contents of one and the same gospel of all time. Christ's death was the central event, , but that fact was not always part of the content or message(a discussion of progressive revelation would be beyond the scope of this message). Indeed, during the Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, the "gospel of the kingdom", the good news" of the approaching Davidic, Messianic kingdom("...as the days of heaven upon the earth...." Deut. 11:24), which was the subject of Old Testament prophecy concerning the restoration of earth with Jesus Christ ruling in righteousness, was preached:

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." Mt. 4:23

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Mt. 10:5-8

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15

And yet, as shown previously, the disciples and apostles understood absolutely nothing of the cross and resurrection. Any honest read of scripture must come to this conclusion. So, how can anyone say that they "...preached Christ crucified...." 1 Cor. 1:23), or 1 Cor. 15:1-4, as Paul did? Impossible. Only later, through Paul's apostle ship, was the cross revealed as the central theme of the gospel(again, the discussion for the reasons for this are beyond the scope of this article).

Romans was Paul's lawyerly exposition on salvation, justification, imputation, propitiation(satisfaction), reconciliation-doctrine. The letters of Paul are structured in keeping with "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"(2 Tim. 3:16), as follows:

Romans-the gospel of Christ-doctrine-main focus is the believer's justification

Corinth-reproof-main focus is the believer's sanctification

Galatians-correction-main focus is the believer's righteousness

Ephesians- the "mystery" doctrine-main focus is the believer's heavenly standing

Philippians-reproof-focus on the believer's defect in conduct

Colossians-correction-focus is on the believer' completeness "in Him"

Thessalonians-focus is on the believer's soon glorification-After the Lord's return, there cannot be any possible need for "reproof", for "correction", hence no church epistles follow Thessalonians.

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Contradictions?

There are obvious contradictions in the Holy Bible - the written Word of God - that cause much of the confusion in people today because of a lack of understanding in How To Study The Bible. We will address some of these issues from time to time in hopes it will help you, or someone you know, grab hold of God's simple truths. Isn't it amazing how mankind wants to complicate what God made very simple?

One of the issues causing abundant confusion today is whether or not we must do good works to be saved, or do good works to maintain our salvation. Look at the following two scriptures:

James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now those are both quotes from the inspired, authorized Word of God. Yet they definitely have different messages . So then, which one is right? Which one does God want you to follow? And why?

The key to KNOWING which one of those passages applies to YOU, so that you can "walk in the Spirit" correctly is 2 Timothy 2:15. A contradiction is a noticeable difference . There is very obvious or noticeable difference between the passages above. Do not skirt around those differences by quoting a scripture most use that has nothing to do with the issue. That is, they attempt to answer (which is not an answer but an evasion) that "Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, today and forever. [Hebrews 13:8] They do that because they do not KNOW the key to understanding the difference. It is an attempt to hide their ignorance which means they do not know. Ignorance does not equal stupidity; it means lacking in knowledge. But you CAN KNOW. God provided a key. The key - again - is 2 Timothy 2:15 in a King James Bible: (Modern versions change the wording because they also "don't know." God forbid they would deliberately change the meaning of God's Word.)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Please note: We AGREE with Hebrews 13:8. Jesus Christ IS the same in every way and every day. That scripture, used as a rebuff, is a "duck blind." Though Christ never changes - GOD never changes - how he deals with or dealt with mankind has changed. If that is not true, then perhaps you better "sell all you have" and follow Christ. Including your computer and your big screen TV!

Remember, the subject here is differences between passages addressing the same issue, and how to deal with them. It has a very simple solution. Man seems to want complicated solutions, therefor overlook God's very simple solutions - in this case - "rightly divide the Word of Truth." How do you do that?

First of all, it helps tremendously to understand 2 Timothy 2:15. Remember, don't try to complicate it. It means what it says. It says, "rightly divide". In some circles you will hear (or may have been taught) that it means to "correctly handle" (some perverted Bibles version) or to "correctly teach." That might look good if you stop at the first word there - "rightly." No problem agreeing that rightly and correctly mean the same.

Where the error comes in is that they quit there and try to ignore the other word God gave - "divide." Actually, that is being kind, because they don't truly ignore it, they change its meaning when they teach the passage. Now, no matter how hard I try, I can't make divide mean handle or teach . It does mean to separate , to cut or, interestingly, distribute . (As in "dispense.") You do not need now to go to the Greek to learn what has already been translated from Greek to English.

So God said to you and me (James was written specifically to Christian Jews scattered abroad who were part of the Little Flock and not the Body of Christ), that WE are to "rightly divide the Word of Truth." And WE (the Body of Christ) are to follow our own apostle (Romans 11:13) who told us that we are to " worketh not, " but are to walk in God's grace. The WORD of God then can be DIVIDED.

Divided into what? Well that is another whole study, but this should excite you enough to want to do that study because it will open up the whole Bible to you in a way you have never seen it, enjoyed it or been excited by it. But the first clue is that it is full of division, from Genesis to the Revelation. Beginning with the division in creation between the heaven and the earth . Enjoy! Get to the division of Prophecy versus The Mystery!

ONLY ONE Gospel In The Bible?

Now there's a comment you hear a lot! If you ask a person by which gospel they think they have been saved, they may look at you as though you were missing something "upstairs" or they may not even know one is saved by hearing and choosing to believe the gospel! Many are deceived into believing they are saved because they "prayed the sinner's prayer," or got water baptized when they were an infant (or even an adult), or got the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, or walked an aisle and gave themselves to the Lord, or "accepted the Lord." There are lots of false ideas people have been taught about how to be saved. But what does God's Word to us say?

1 Corinthians 15:1,2: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you , which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

Note the "if you keep in memory what I (Apostle Paul) preached unto you." Why did he say that? Why was he concerned that you remember what he preached? Obviously it was because it is important to note that there are other messages preached that could be different than what he preached. Let's look at an example. In one book of the Bible there seems to be two distinct messages (gospels) -

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Repent and be baptized or Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

Well, which is it? Which one is correct for you? And why? Does it make a difference? It sure does! It is the difference between eternal life with God or eternal separation from God, between heaven and hell.

There is a scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2, Verse 10 that is very scary to me for those I love that do not yet believe the "right" gospel. It says that they perish because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. This is what is going to happen when the church is removed from the earth at the "appearing" of the Lord Jesus Christ. Like many people often think they will have a chance to "get it right" on their death bed or shortly before, they think they will be able to get it right if suddenly all the Christians disappear from the earth. But that is not what God said in His Word. He said they will be deceived and will not be able to see or hear the truth then. It will be too late.

Well, it's as simple as seeing that there is a difference between those two commands above and choosing to believe the one that is offered to you. At the beginning of this article, you read the beginning of the gospel that applies today. The whole of that gospel is in the next two verses of 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:3,4:" For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...."

In Acts 16:31, Paulwas saying, believe this (1 Cor. 15:3,4) about Jesus Christ and you will be saved. And that offer is available to your whole household.

You see, WHAT you believe about Jesus Christ is important. Even the devil believes "in him." But believing that Jesus Christ as God the Son, died for your sins, was buried and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures is how you are saved today. Period. How is that different from Acts 2:38? That one says "Repent" AND do something (be baptized). The other says to simply believe. TRUST in. Trust in the work that Christ did for us on Calvary.

Yes, we know it seems simple. It is. Yes, there is more than one gospel in the Bible. The reason why is that God has dealt with different people at different times in different ways. He has a different purpose - a different plan for the different people. The Acts 2 scripture we have been dealing with here has to do with God's chosen "earthly people," Israel. Not you and me.

Today, and ever since he saved Saul of Tarsus then called Paul, he is building himself another church for his "heavenly" people (Ephesians 1:3) and the program for us is different. That is why there seem to be contradictions in the Bible. But there are no contradictions - just differences that you can learn about so you know which apply to you.

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"...that it removes CHRIST from his seat and inserts brother paul. and yet brother pauls gospel is simple, understandable and points only to CHRIST."

Yes, I agree it is so simple, but you will not find this gospel outside of the revelation Paul received from the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. Saying "removes CHRIST from his seat and inserts brother Paul" sounds noble, but you are rebelling against the Lord's chosen vessel during this "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph. 3:2).

Paul is the "apostle of the Gentiles"(Romans 11:13, Gal. 2:8), and thus your apostle.

Paul is "the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God"(Romans 15:16), which was commmitted to his trust(1 Tim. 1:11).

Paul is "an apostle...a teacher of the Gentiles...(1 Tim. 2:8).

Paul was "appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles"(2 Tim. 1:11).

Paul "laid the foundation" for the Body of Christ(1 Cor. 3:10).

Paul is a "minister of God according to the dispensation of God"(Col. 1:25).

Paul's writings are the Lord Jesus Christ's commandments today: Romans 15:18,

2 Cor. 13:3, 1 Cor. 14:37:

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

We are to follow Paul by direct orders from the Lord Jesus Christ-following Paul is following Christ:

"Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me." 1 Cor. 4:16

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." 1 Cor. 11:1

"Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample." Philippians 3:17

"Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you." Philippians 4:9

Paul is our pattern:

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." 1 Tim. 1:16

Paul received his authority from the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven by revelation, not from man: Acts 20:24; Romans 16:25;Gal. 1:11,12, 2:2; Eph. 3:3

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PAUL'S GOSPEL

There are two great revelators, or unfolders of Divine Truth in the Bible - Moses in the Old Testament, and Paul in the New.

Someone may say, "Is not Christ the Great Teacher?" In a sense this is true; but in a real sense Christ is the Person taught about, rather than teaching, in the Gospels. The law and the prophets pointed forward to Christ; the Epistles point back to Him; and the Book of Revelation points to His second coming, and those things connected with it. The Four Gospels tell the story how He was revealed to men and rejected by them.* Christ, Himself, therefore is the theme of the Bible. Moses in the Law reveals God's holiness, and thus by means of the Law reveals human sin, and the utter hopelessness and helplessness of man. Paul in his great Epistles reveals Christ as our Righteousness, Sanctification, Redemption, and All in All.

The twelve Apostles (Matthias by Divine appointment taking the place of Judas) were to be the "witnesses" (Acts 1:22) of Christ's resuffection - that is, of the fact of it. They were not to unfold fully the doctrine of it, as Paul was. The twelve were with Jesus personally, and knew Him as a man; and when He died they saw it. When He was buried, they knew it personally, as eye-witnesses. And when He was raised, they found it out experimentally, visiting His actual tomb, and seeing that it was empty.They were also to see and handle the physical, risen body of our Lord. And it was with them that our Lord abode on earth forty days after His resurrection, "shewing Him- self alive (physically, in a body) by many infallible proofs" (Acts 1:3).

*Christ, when on earth, did not "start" anything. He said, in Matt. 16:18: "I will build My Church;" but He had not yet built it. He was a "Minister of the circumcision," (Rom. 15:8; Matt. 15:24); and though He taught, it was to discover to men their helplessness, and lead them to rely on Him. Finally, all failed in Gethsemane. Then came the Cross and the end of all things human. Then the resurrection, and a new beginning.*

This great fact - that is, that the Person that the Jews themselves well knew they had crucified and buried, was risen from the dead and ascended to heaven - this tremendous fact the twelve Apostles witnessed to Israel at Jerusalem, and everywhere else. Thus we find the opening chapters of the Book of Acts filled with the single testimony that Jesus of Nazareth had risen from the dead; and that remssion of sins was through Him.

But onto none of these twelve Apostles did God reveal the great body of doctrine for this age. Just as God chose Moses to be the revelator to Israel of the Ten Commandments, and all connected with the Law dispensation; so God chose Saul of Tarsus to be the revelator and unfolder of those mighty truths connected with our Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, and His ascended Person. And all the "mysteries" or "secrets" revealed to God's people in this dispensation by the Holy Ghost are revealed by Paul. Finally, Paul is the unfolder of that great company of God's elect, called the Church, the Body of Christ, the individuals of which body are called members of the Body of Christ-members of Christ Himself.

No other Apostle speaks of these things. Peter himself had to learn them from Paul (II Peter 3: 15-16). When Paul finishes his thirteen great Epistles (Romans to Philemon) those which belong to the Church, God indeed permits him to give a message then to the Hebrews. This is not part of the Church

[Guest zhavoney]

xyz

[Guest zhavoney]

xyz

[Guest zhavoney]

xyz

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Bible student,

The key is what Jesus said. And he was VERY clear. When he returns, he will take the saints and kill everyone else. There will be no one else left alive on earth. But let

[salt and light]

The saints that the Lord is coming WITH,are the saints that are already in heaven {old testament saints, new testaments saints ,saints that died since those times, AND martyred saints of the tribulation period},those are the saints the Lord is coming with, not the saints that are supposedly raptured 7 years before the second coming.

[JesusisGod2]

The saints that the Lord is coming WITH,are the saints that are already in heaven {old testament saints, new testaments saints ,saints that died since those times, AND martyred saints of the tribulation period},those are the saints the Lord is coming with, not the saints that are supposedly raptured 7 years before the second coming.

You might want to read Revelation 19 where it mentions the marriage supper and those who are clothed in white linen, this is speaking of the church.

And then it speaks of the same coming back with Him, you can read what you want into it but the fact is it is speaking of the marriage supper --the church is the bride, and it is they who are coming back with Christ at His second coming.

Is Jesus going to have a wedding supper without the bride?

But one thing you are right about is the fact that He is coming back with are those who are in heaven and that would be us,

the church and we got there by the rapture of the church, it very clearly states that those who are in fine linen and pure and white are the bride of which is the church. This is the wedding supper after all.

As far as the timing of 7 years before His coming, I am not saying that at all, I believe in post trib/pre-wrath and believe that the scriptures teach this, but must admit I am not certain on the timing except to say that it happens before armeggedon, because it clearly shows that we are coming with Him.

And it appears to say that it happens right after the fall of Babylon.

[Guest phelanfine]

I red this thread :oww:

HEAVEN EARTH HEAVEN EARTH HEAVEN EARTH

:t: HEAVEN IS THE EXPANCE ABOVE THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH. JESUS SAID HEAVEN IS MY THRONE AND THE EARTH IS MY FOOTSTOOL, JESUS IS HERE :suspect: WHERE WILL YOU TAKE YOUR NEXT BREATH THAT YOU WON'T BE IN HIS PRESENCE. LOOKS LIKE SOME OF THESE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN ZUSE AND PLUTO :oww:

JESUS is LORD