Trinity or Oneness?

[damo1]

damo1

to owingsaseagles

Exodus 19

9 the lord said to moses i am going to come to you in a dense cloud so that the people wil hear me speaking with you and wil and wil always put their trust in you then moses told the lord what the people had said

10 and the lord said to moses go to the people and concencrate them today and tomorow have then wash their clothes

11and be ready by the third day because on that day the lord wil come down on mount sinia in the sight of al the people

13 put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touh the foot of it whoever touches the mountain shall surley be put to death

14 he shal surley be stoned or shot with arrows not a hand shal be layed on him weather it man or animal he shal not be permited to live only when the rams horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the moutain

i think he says it very clear and i am sure not going to argue against these warning i know if i was alive and i was with moses and aron around that time i would surley obey what was said to moses by god

you would be very foolish as no man has seen gods face and i am sure if moses wear to see gods face he would be dead or if he took a little step closser when he aproached the lord wear the lord spoke to moses threw the burinig bush with the paseges i gave out i think when god said to moses stop you are standing on holy ground i am glad god spoke in a loud voice like this and if you wear moses would you not cover your fase and tremble in fear ?

Exodue

33

21 then the lord said their is a place near me wear you may stand on a rock

22 when my glory passes by i wil put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until i have passed by

23 then i wil remove my hand and you wil see my back but my face must not be seen

how much more proof does one person need owingsaseagles it shows me that one you listen to those around you or you do not study your bible in front of you like i do with the bibles i have

how much more can a person point out when it comes to gods living word are you teling me if you wear moses you would have dared asked god to see his face ? and if you wear able to see his face can you honestly tel me that you wil be alive know ?

you puzzle me owingsaseagles you have the living word of god in front of you yets if as if what you read is not sinking in or something is missing hear

as i am able to take heed to al the warnings layed out right in front of my eyes it just shows me how loving god was when it came to moses moses had a strong relationship with god him self as god heard what moses had to say or the book of exodus is all lies which is it ownigsaseagles wear are you geting all these ideas and you should know we wil al face god on judgment day wil you dare question god over what you read in gods living word ?

the simple fact my friend is this the bible cant be predicting its self and what is written in the bible can not be lies

if an inmate like my self can openly understand everything that is said alow christ to have his way in my life with out arguing or twisting gods word and alow the holy spirit to guide me like the apostle paul alowed gods holy spirit to guide him when it comes to the truth of gods word who has it wrong hear owingsaseagles ?

very simple question i am asking of you hear owingsaseagles

god bles from damo

[PreciousRubi]

Jesus didn't say that we have not seen his face, he said we have not seen the Father..... Moses said he had seen God along with his friends (and I take it they seemed surprised that they didn't die).... and that isn't me saying that, it's Moses (assuming he is responsible for writing Exodus).

You have big red words there..... are you yelling at me????

lol.... I'm not yelling at you.

I was just drawing out those words for clarity's sake.

No anger here....no yelling...Just good friendly discussion on my part.

[ted]

[damo1]

I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread.

#1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only?

#2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

#3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father?

These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them.

damo1 sunday 11th of nov 2007 time 8.49 am

to owingsaseagles

we all come from many denominations i am going to put up a challange for you since you like to question us on how we are bought up with in our churches this is not an attack on you or is this to put you down

how about you state your missions statement from your church and tell us all hear who have been aplying to this topic that has been set up by the op how new christians who commit them selves to your church are taught

that way their wil be no confusion and every single person that has so far approached this topic and given you nothing but the truth

we wil be able to see what you belive and how a person is guided with in your own church when it comes to the bible we all read from many difrent translations we dont all read from the same bible i think i told you sevral times that i do not worship one translation over another translation

this is a christian forum how many times do you need to ask this of us that have been openly sharing hear

this is a simple request owingsaseagles and as i said its not attack or to put you down i just seems that you find by what we say and the scritpture passages we give must some how be confusing you when gods word does not lie

i also saw what you left for me in your post on baptisem and i wil jot this in your post as wel so all can see how people in your church are bought up

god bless from damo

[damo1]

I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread.

#1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only?

#2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

#3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father?

These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them.

No takers?Shucks I was very interested in what you all might come up with.

God Bless You All

damo1

to owingsaseagles

learn to get of the milk and beome a man and dig in to the real word of god and then may be you wil get some honest answers stop being such a baby owingsaseagles as this is al that its showing me you are the one confused hear brother

every single thing you say is confusing owingsaseagles their is your simple reply learn to walk in unity instead of being such a know it all

from damo

[other one]

Jesus didn't say that we have not seen his face, he said we have not seen the Father..... Moses said he had seen God along with his friends (and I take it they seemed surprised that they didn't die).... and that isn't me saying that, it's Moses (assuming he is responsible for writing Exodus).

You have big red words there..... are you yelling at me????

lol.... I'm not yelling at you.

I was just drawing out those words for clarity's sake.

No anger here....no yelling...Just good friendly discussion on my part.

Great, we're cool, I just needed to be sure you were not being offended. I'd not do that for anything

[other one]

damo1

to owingsaseagles

learn to get of the milk and beome a man and dig in to the real word of god and then may be you wil get some honest answers stop being such a baby owingsaseagles as this is al that its showing me you are the one confused hear brother

every single thing you say is confusing owingsaseagles their is your simple reply learn to walk in unity instead of being such a know it all

from damo

damo, if you'll send me your address, I'll loan you my copy of "How to win friends and influence enemies" I think it might help you get your points across.

[AnotherTraveler]

This was my earlier post...

The nature of the invisible God. The explanation of the nature of the invisible God. The requirement that all accept the extra-biblical doctrine in it's entirity or they are in heresy. Why not agree with the scriptures?

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Could both sides of this agree that when it came to understanding mysteries, the Apostle Paul just might have a little deeper revelation than most of us? Yet, he calls this mystery GREAT.

Is it not a bit arrogant to argue over the nature of the Godhead?

Oneness is not an easy position to defend as though it is easy to explain, however, neither is the trinity doctrine an easy position to defend.

Consider the issue of who is the Father of Jesus? Should be an easy answer, well, of course, the Father is the Father, duh! Right? Yet, what does the scripture say?

Matt 1:18-20 (KJV)

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Now anyone trying to seperate the Father and the Holy Ghost have a real hard time explaining these verses. The bible says clearly twice here that she was found to be with child of the Holy Ghost. How do you explain that? Easy! 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) It's a GREAT MYSTERY!

How can the Father speak from the heavens, while the Son is standing right there, as the sign of the Holy Ghost is manifest all at once? 1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

I have read and studied for over 30 years on this subject, and neither side has convinced me that they know any more than Paul did, or any more than the bible says, and I say let God speak to us through His Word. I suspect that God is much more glorified by us loving one another than He is by us deciding that we somehow can explain this GREAT MYSTERY that the bible does not bother to explain.

Isaiah 44:6 (GW)

The Lord is Israel's king and defender.

He is the Lord of Armies.

This is what the Lord says:

I am the first and the last,

and there is no God except me.

Deut 6:4 (KJV)

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Matt 28:19-20 (KJV)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 1:18 (KJV)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 (KJV)

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Personally, I would be disappointed if any of us could really easily explain so great a mystery in a few paragraphs, oneness or trinity included.

Could both sides of this agree that when it came to understanding mysteries, the Apostle Paul just might have a little deeper revelation than most of us? Yet, he calls this mystery GREAT.

Is it not a bit arrogant to argue over the nature of the Godhead?

Can either side of this coin answer my question? I suspect both are somewhat right, and somewhat wrong, but the full understanding might have to wait until we get there.

[PreciousRubi]

I would like to hear you alls opinion,every one BUT DAMO

Poor Damo...hehe

I am interested to know how these scriptures are viewed.... I see a distinct Father and Son or am I misunderstanding them.

Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

John 5:36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

John 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

John 8:16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.

John 8:18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."

John 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.

John 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

There are many more scriptures like this....

Also...I'm truly interested in your answers....as some here may know my position on this subject....and if you don't...well...I am making inquiries at the present time.

PR

[Guest rosswell59]

I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread.

#1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only?

Actually, in Matthew we have the formula and in Acts we simply have who was being represented in the act, otherwise the two passages would contradict one another.

#2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

If you understand the trinity properly, all three persons are active in every work of God. The Father wills it, the Son orders it and the Holy Spirit carries it out. All of the verses taken together convey the true picture of the godhead being completely involved.

#3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father?

The Holy Ghost was active in forming Christ's human body only. This isn't conception in the sense we speak of it. As God, He was eternally the Son in the bosom of the Father so he wasn't begotten in the normal human sense.

Ok, since I've answered your questions, now I have one for you.

In the great prayer of John 17 we have the following:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Do you think that the Lord was asking the Father to make them into only one person with several different identities as the oneness model does with God?

Yours in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Ross