Trinity or Oneness?

[PreciousRubi]

damo1

page 28 know and we cant work things out yet it was because of people like owings i did not want to come back to church i ran into many like him and to be honest i would rather be happy living the life i was living than have people like this be little me every time they get confronted they find new approaches or ignore you all together

and being honest hear i did not even want to come back i would be happy in hel than around a bunch of people that like to be litttle you yet i had no choice when the holy spirit kept on puting peoples faces in my mind to the point of shaking me up in 2001 i had no wear to run or hide but surrender it took me a month to walk back into a church nowing i would stil run into people like owings i had to even ask jesus to forgive me for mocking him the way i did and also greiving the holy spirit

so you guys are only seeing this know wel i feel for you as this is just going to keep happening hear i am amazed that he has not complained as i was doing this my self until he put a complaint in so be very care ful how you push him

i am stil hear going over the topics and you are right kansas dad with the apostle john i am just going over some things know in the bible my self

he wil find a way to come back if he is not being heard this is also something i am noticing know in how he approaches things and also they say we are only hear for the truth you wil work him out

yet i love him as one of my own brothers and i wil stil love him no matter how he be littles me with his gifted knoweldge

as he knows i wil be very skeptical when it comes to how he understands this gospel we read

i feel for you men who understand gods word yet you wil know how to approach this

god bless from your brother in the lord damien

Gee, I'm glad that you clarified that you love him.

Can you all just stop with the personal comments and get on with the discussion at hand.

Makes me think of the times when I was a kid, listening to my dad during theological discussions with others.

When they had exhausted all their scriptural weaponry, they resorted to personal attacks.

Com'on guys....

[other one]

I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread.

#1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only?

#2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

#3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father?

These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them.

Answer these question if you can kansasdad,as ovedya is the only one willing to attempt it so far.

Unless you kansasdad are the one ignoring the truth,you should have some answers.

To question one I would only say that there are a lot of things that the apostles didn't understand that they were told. I'll have to do some looking to see if that is all they baptized in.

As for question two it will take a bit of time to compile an answer for it isn't simple.

As for question three I would only ask if the doctor that is artificially inseminating a mother would be considered the father. One can not say from the things written in scripture that the Spirit was the Father of Christ.

It's getting late for me tonight and I'm getting to tired to look up all the scripture that I need to answer your second question.

[damo1]

damo1

very intresting owings since you like pulling this off topic with the questions you left have nothing to do with this subject so keep this on course this is just your way of throwing in confusion and saying you are the only one right what did i say to you i wil be very skeptical when it comes to your way of understanding this gospel we all read and in many diffrent translations how you see this some one wil see this in a difrent light

john 4 new spirit filled life bible verse 23 but the hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers

will worship the father in spirit and truth for the father is seeking such to worship him

24 god is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

john 5 new spirit filled life bible verse 39 you search the scriptures for in them you think you

have eternal life and these are they which testify me

40 but you are not willing to come to me that you may have life

41 i do not receive honor from men

42 but i do i know you that you do not have the love of god in you

43 i have come in my fathers name and you do not receive me if another comes in his own

name his you will receive

44 how can you belive who receives honor from one another and do not seek the honor

that comes from the only god

i wil always be skeptical when it comes to your interpretation of the gospel until you start to show some sign that you wil hear other out instead of throwing your own twisters and like what you said in your last topic oh i read it alright word for word if you feel i am not hearing you out

keep on topic this is one topic you wil not throw me off no matter how you dislike what i say i am human and i am free to be involved in this topic as this is why i say i do not sift threw the bible and only read what i want to read and ignore everything else and i do not make such a fool of my self by saying i have al the answers and every one needs to read or how do i say it become a student of owings you are on your own hear my friend

and as i said no matter how you try to be little me i wil stil forgive you and i wil still treat you as one of my own brothers like i do with the men in my own church

keep this on topic those answers you wanted people to answer have nothing to do with this topic and i notice when people try to answer them like one member hear did you stil disagree

god bless from damo

[Kansasdad]

O.K. Onwings,

It is evident that you are pretty locked in to your view. The scriptures you have given in the previous post to me declare clearly the Father and the Son. I could give you many more that declare seperately the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I know you've seen them and have found a way to interpret them differently. By the way, I'm sure someone has brought this scriptue up already: Acts 5:3,4, which declares the Holy Spirit as God.

But my question to you here is, in Gen 1:26, how do you interpret the pronouns US and OUR when God is refering to Himself?

Greg.

Saying the Holy Spirit is God,doesn't change any thing.I have never denied that the Holy Spirit is God,The Holy Spirit is no less God than you spirit is you.

Genesis 1:26 any time people create a complete doctrine around one solitary verse you know it must be flawed.

This is just what I was talking about, you give an answer but you didn't answer his question. Just like you give me a response but it doesn't really address the scripture given. You just ignore it and re state your doctrine, just like you did above.

I will get to your list later, but it looks like much doublespeak.

[Kansasdad]

I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread.

#1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only?

#2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

#3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father?

These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them.

Answer these question if you can kansasdad,as ovedya is the only one willing to attempt it so far.

Unless you kansasdad are the one ignoring the truth,you should have some answers.

Interesting as I am reading through Acts to see exactly which verse you are referring to and I run across the words of Peter:

12 But Peter seeing, made answer to the people: Ye men of Israel, why wonder you at this? or why look you upon us, as if by our strength or power we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus, whom you indeed delivered up and denied before the face of Pilate, when he judged he should be released. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you. 15 But the author of life you killed, whom God hath raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

God the father glorified his Son

The Author of life you killed, Was the author of life around before Jesus was on earth....yes Yet he was killed. to hold on to your theory then God the father was killed.....hardly.. Then we see that God raised someone from the dead...Oh yes it was the Author of life, the Holy one. The same person that was killed.

Interesting how scripture supports the trinity every time you look.

God Bless,

K.D.

[Kansasdad]

and even more from Peter:

30 The God of our fathers hath raised up Jesus, whom you put to death, hanging him upon a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand, to be Prince and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins. 32 And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him.

Is God exalting himself with his right hand??????????and making himself Prince????????????

Peter doesn't treat your theory very well.

K.D.

[Kansasdad]

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

maybe this is what you are referring to......but it also blows holes in your theory. If Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the same then why the clear distinction of the two. This verse clearly shows the presence of Jesus but not the presence of the Holy Ghost. Not possible within your theory.

God Bless,

K.D.

[other one]

I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread.

#1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only?

#2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

#3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father?

These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them.

Answer these question if you can kansasdad,as ovedya is the only one willing to attempt it so far.

Unless you kansasdad are the one ignoring the truth,you should have some answers.

To question one I would only say that there are a lot of things that the apostles didn't understand that they were told. I'll have to do some looking to see if that is all they baptized in.

As for question two it will take a bit of time to compile an answer for it isn't simple.

As for question three I would only ask if the doctor that is artificially inseminating a mother would be considered the father. One can not say from the things written in scripture that the Spirit was the Father of Christ.

It's getting late for me tonight and I'm getting to tired to look up all the scripture that I need to answer your second question.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for question two, #2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

Matt 10:19-20

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

KJV

One might say that this is saying that the Spirit is the Father, and on the surface I would agree..... however when there are seemingly discrepancies in the Bible I have learned to return to the original language to see if there is something there that could be the prblem.

The word "of" in spirit of your Father is: [humon] it's strongs word #5216 and can be translated either of, or from. The KJV uses the word of in this passage however in the Book of John when Jesus is speaking of the Spirit and what/who it is tells us that it is the Spirit which if from the Father. And the greek wording is not something that could be one or the other..... it's from. It also goes on to say that the Spirit will not speak anything on it's own, but only what it hears, which further shows that

The Holy Spirit is from the Father. If the Holy Spirit "is" the Father then why would the Spirit only show/tell us what it hears and nothing of itself.

John 14:16

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide with you for ever;

KJV

John 14:26

26 But the Comforter , which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is also intresting that it says that it will not be you that speaks, but the Spirit that Speaks within you.

As for Mark:

Mark 13:11

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

KJV

It basically says the very same thing..... it is the Spirit that is speaking within or through you. Both are saying the same thing, but the first is telling you that the Spirit is from the Father.

As for Luke:

Luke 21:14-15

14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;

15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.

NKJV

Same thing, Jesus is saying that He'll give you a mouth the wisdom of what to speak..... and that Mouth is the Holy Spirit...... and remember in John 14:16 that Jesus prayed and the Father sent us the Holy Spirit.

None of this would make any sense at all if all three are the same thing

We have one God..... The Father..... and one Lord, His Son Jesus that we call The Christ..... and the Son asked the Father for something to comfort us and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and be a direct contact with both the Father and Jesus.

The only problem there really is pertains to what I brought up a long time ago....... what does the word "God" in Greek and Hebrew really mean..... that we must have only one of and call all three if them God and that we have one God.

Secret to this whole discussion is "What does the greek/hebrew word God mean. You can't finish this discussion without defining that word.

[ArtistforChrist]

Hello all,

I don't know what all has been said because I did not have the time to read every post, so forgive me if I re-state what has already been said.

The Bible clearly states the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is not the same as the Father, He prays to the Father, if he was the Father, he would be crazy or a split personality, he also said he would send "another" refering to the Holy Spirit and the most convincing scripture that the Father and Son are two distinct persons is this one:

John 8:1318-The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

If Jesus is the Father this statement would be a nonsensical argument on Jesus behalf.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist <><

Edited November 20, 2007 by ArtistforChrist

[PreciousRubi]

I have a few questions for the trinitarians that visit this thread.

#1 why is it when Jesus in matthew 28:19 told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the Father,of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit that they refused his demand and in acts went about baptizing people in the name of Jesus only?

#2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

#3 matthew 1:18&21 say that mary concieved Jesus by the Holy Ghost.So if the Holy Ghost is the one that impregnated mary then isn't he the Father of Jesus and not God the Father?

These are honest questions,so if any of you have any answers I would be glad to hear them.

Answer these question if you can kansasdad,as ovedya is the only one willing to attempt it so far.

Unless you kansasdad are the one ignoring the truth,you should have some answers.

To question one I would only say that there are a lot of things that the apostles didn't understand that they were told. I'll have to do some looking to see if that is all they baptized in.

As for question two it will take a bit of time to compile an answer for it isn't simple.

As for question three I would only ask if the doctor that is artificially inseminating a mother would be considered the father. One can not say from the things written in scripture that the Spirit was the Father of Christ.

It's getting late for me tonight and I'm getting to tired to look up all the scripture that I need to answer your second question.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for question two, #2 why is it that Jesus says in matthew 10:20 that when we are challange for a testimony by magestrates that the Father would tell us what to say.But in mark 13:11 he says it will be the Holy Ghost that tells us and in luke 21:15 He says that it would be him, Jesus himself that tells us.Which one of the three is it actually going to be?

Matt 10:19-20

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

KJV

One might say that this is saying that the Spirit is the Father, and on the surface I would agree..... however when there are seemingly discrepancies in the Bible I have learned to return to the original language to see if there is something there that could be the prblem.

The word "of" in spirit of your Father is: [humon] it's strongs word #5216 and can be translated either of, or from. The KJV uses the word of in this passage however in the Book of John when Jesus is speaking of the Spirit and what/who it is tells us that it is the Spirit which if from the Father. And the greek wording is not something that could be one or the other..... it's from. It also goes on to say that the Spirit will not speak anything on it's own, but only what it hears, which further shows that

The Holy Spirit is from the Father. If the Holy Spirit "is" the Father then why would the Spirit only show/tell us what it hears and nothing of itself.

John 14:16

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide with you for ever;

KJV

John 14:26

26 But the Comforter , which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is also intresting that it says that it will not be you that speaks, but the Spirit that Speaks within you.

As for Mark:

Mark 13:11

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

KJV

It basically says the very same thing..... it is the Spirit that is speaking within or through you. Both are saying the same thing, but the first is telling you that the Spirit is from the Father.

As for Luke:

Luke 21:14-15

14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;

15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.

NKJV

Same thing, Jesus is saying that He'll give you a mouth the wisdom of what to speak..... and that Mouth is the Holy Spirit...... and remember in John 14:16 that Jesus prayed and the Father sent us the Holy Spirit.

None of this would make any sense at all if all three are the same thing

We have one God..... The Father..... and one Lord, His Son Jesus that we call The Christ..... and the Son asked the Father for something to comfort us and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and be a direct contact with both the Father and Jesus.

The only problem there really is pertains to what I brought up a long time ago....... what does the word "God" in Greek and Hebrew really mean..... that we must have only one of and call all three if them God and that we have one God.

Secret to this whole discussion is "What does the greek/hebrew word God mean. You can't finish this discussion without defining that word.

I agree the spirit of the Father is the Holy spirit and Jesus speaks through us by his Holy Spirit they are all 1 and the same as I have been saying, but trinitarians separate them.

The text clearly states the Father is the only God ,you can try and twist it around all you want by when others see that you have to twist scripture to make your point they will realize it is because you are wrong.

I'm seeing your viewpoint......(not necessarily agreeing)....but what I just dont understand is how you conclude that the name Yeshua or "Jesus" is the name of God and not Yahweh.

PR