Do Babies Automatically Go to Heaven?

[JesusisGod2]

Yes, I believe it does apply to those who are profoundly retarded or mentally handicapped.  But there are many who are retarded who are able to come to an understanding of right and wrong.  Salvation isn't that hard to understand.  If it were, only college professors would be in heaven.

I agree with you Rose, very good post but I wanted to highlite this especially.

We have a couple of retarded boys Or should I say men (they are about as old as me) who come to church with their parents, and man do they love the Lord.

They are continually praising Him and always smiling, they are full of Gods love and it shows. So I agree that even though some are retarded, God does seem to give them understanding that some of us take for granted. And quite possibly a deeper understanding and appreciation than we.

When I go to their house they play with toys as a child and get excited over things as a child, but man do they know how to worship. Their parents and God has raised them well.

whose to say that some of the severely retarded arent worshipping God? Maybe because some cant express themselves to us, we think they cant express themselves to God.

Either way, one thing is for sure and that is that God is just!

[JesusisGod2]

Our name remains, until we die, unless we blatantly reject God and His Son Jesus Christ. We do that with our OWN SIN, and by rejecting the FINAL offer of God of salvation through Jesus Christ. It is then we receive the just do which we merited while in the flesh as we stand before the Judgment seat of Christ.

Can you prove first off that everyone starts in the book?

Secondly can you prove that "blotting out" is only done after death?

Third what is considered blatent rejection? What of the person who never hears the gospel? He didn't Blatantly reject God?

Suppose someone never sinned? Is it not feasable that if we are born innocent that maybe just one person in the world could live until he was say 15 without ever doing a wrong thing? Does he need Christ? Would he need to be saved? I don't see a sinless life as a possibilty because I believe in total depravity.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings MCM,

Can you prove first off that everyone starts in the book?

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

John 3:15-18 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:20-22 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Secondly can you prove that "blotting out" is only done after death?

Why do you ask that? Don't you believe that every man, woman and child is on Jesus' heart, even up to the moment of death? It is by their acceptance or rejection of Christ up to the moment of death that determines whether they shall have eternal life and are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. THEIR SIN, if they remain in it, will keep them from remaining in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Third what is considered blatent rejection? What of the person who never hears the gospel? He didn't Blatantly reject God?

Romans 2:11-16 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 4:15-16 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

It is by the law that all humanity stands condemned. But the sacrifice of Christ took place even FROM the foundation of the world, BEFORE the time when there was "law":

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Suppose someone never sinned? Is it not feasable that if we are born innocent that maybe just one person in the world could live until he was say 15 without ever doing a wrong thing? Does he need Christ? Would he need to be saved? I don't see a sinless life as a possibilty because I believe in total depravity.

I too believe in "total depravity". I also believe in God's "sovereign grace". I also believe that God allows none to perish that He hasn't attempted to reach. His love "for the world" prohibits Him from NOT trying to reach every last soul. His justice OTOH, requires that we be "sinless" if we are to spend eternity with Him, and that is why He sent His Son to die in our place, so that ALL who have the facilties to "believe" in Him, SHALL NOT DIE, but gain everlasting life. I choose to believe that the unborn, babies, children before the age of reason or committing sin, and the mentally infirm, somewhere in the recesses of their souls have a nitch where Jesus Christ is made manifest to them. IOW, I believe God is FAIR & JUST, & GRACIOUS, LONG SUFFERING, WISHING NONE SHOULD PERISH.

So it is up to you now to prove otherwise.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest fishingpenguin]

Suppose someone never sinned? Is it not feasable that if we are born innocent that maybe just one person in the world could live until he was say 15 without ever doing a wrong thing? Does he need Christ? Would he need to be saved? I don't see a sinless life as a possibilty because I believe in total depravity.

Sorry, i don't know exactly what you mean by total depravity. However, if someone lives a sinless life then they would need no forgiveness of sins, and could live with God. However, noone is gonna do it. (Romans 3:23) EXCEPT FOR CHRIST. Because he didn't deserve death (sins earns death, Rom 6:23) but still died for us, he paid our debt. I'm sure you know that, but it just shows that one without sin could be with God. Man just isn't ever gonna do it.

And now for children going to heaven when they die because of innocence...

Matt 18:3

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. "

There ya go!

[Guest mcm42]

Can you prove first off that everyone starts in the book?

None of your verses say anything about the book of life. I do not believe that everyone starts out in the book, and then the decision is made at the end of their life whether depending on whether or not they did certain things. This is works based salvation, no matter what single act you claim even if it is Belief it is something that man does, and man can do nothing without first being saved. So in reality, though they happen closely in time to each other, we are saved first then we act, or do works.

Secondly can you prove that "blotting out" is only done after death?

There are verses in the Bible, (I can not look them up I don't have access to a Bible right now, reset assured by the evening I will) that speak of people being blotted out? Since you had done so much research on the topic, I figured you could enlighten us on those verses... you did not.

Also, where does it say that the Lambs Book corresponds in any way to the heart of God? This is some sort of "connection" that you have made, and I wonder if it's biblical?

"Don't you believe that every man, woman and child is on Jesus' heart, even up to the moment of death"

Whether or not I believe this has nothing to do with "the Lambs Book".

Third what is considered blatent rejection? What of the person who never hears the gospel? He didn't Blatantly reject God?

I too believe in "total depravity". I also believe in God's "sovereign grace". I also believe that God allows none to perish that He hasn't attempted to reach.

Total Depravity means that Man cannot of his own will choose Christ. Rather he needs the Spirit to first make him alive before he can act.

I choose to believe that the unborn, babies, children before the age of reason or committing sin, and the mentally infirm, somewhere in the recesses of their souls have a nitch where Jesus Christ is made manifest to them

I will not believe in this "age of reason or committing sin" it is not Biblical, if it is tell me how old? I believe all these people are God's elect, the same as every other believer, chosen before the foundations of the earth.

Thanks for your responses they are, if nothing else, something to consider. Hopefully you can say the same about mine.

[stevehut]

People, people...

I think you're making this a lot more complicated than it has to be...

What is it that keeps people out of heaven?

Unforgiven sin.

Babies don't sin.

The age of accountability is not relevant here, because there's nothing to be accountable for.

Repentance isn't relevant here, because babies have nothing to repent of.

You say we're saved by faith alone? Well, babies don't have faith.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

[Guest mcm42]

Is every Baby completely Righteous? I do not believe this.

[stevehut]

Is every Baby completely Righteous? I do not believe this.

I don't understand. What makes a baby unrighteous?

[Guest mcm42]

Sinful nature,

Romans 3

for we have already charged that both (16) Jews and (17) Greeks are (18) all under sin;

10 as it is written,

"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11

THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,

THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12

ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;

THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,

THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

13

"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,

WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"

"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";

14

"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";

15

"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16

DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17

AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."

18

"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES

These verses speak of Jews and Gentiles alike, Jewish Babies and Gentile Babies as well.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

Matthew 19:13-15 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);

TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,

misc 13; 146

1) to send away

1a) to bid going away or depart

1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife

1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire

1c) to let go, let alone, let be

1c1) to disregard

1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)

1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers

1c3) to omit, neglect

1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit

1e) to give up, keep no longer

2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person

3) to leave, go way from one

3a) in order to go to another place

3b) to depart from any one

3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all

mutual claims are abandoned

3d) to desert wrongfully

3e) to go away leaving something behind

3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion

3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one

3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining

3i) abandon, leave destitute

3813 paidion {pahee-dee'-on}

from dimin. of 3816; TDNT - 5:636,759; n n

AV - child 25, little child 12, young child 10, damsel 4; 51

1) a young child, a little boy, a little girl

1a) infants

1b) children, little ones

1c) an infant

1c1) of a (male) child just recently born

1d) of a more advanced child; of a mature child;

1e) metaph. children (like children) in intellect

Please look at 1e above. At which point is a child no longer considered a child? Only God knows the maturity and heart of anyone whether it be a child or an adult. Man has placed an arbitrary age upon "children" that is called "the age of accountability". If a 3 year old points a gun at you and kills you, is he/she as liable as though that same child was 10? 13? 19? Doesn't even YOUR OWN reasoning tell you that sin, which was manifested because of the law, cannot apply to a person, an infant or mentally infirm, that has absolutely no understanding of that law? History tells us that throughout ALL mankind, there IS an "age of accountability", an age where a child becomes responsible for their own actions. As I have said, mankind has set arbitrary dates for this, but God KNOWS THE HEART.

Isn't it interesting that the disciples tried to shoo away the children, but Jesus quickly rebuffed them and accepted them whole heartedly. It sounds like some here are trying their best to justify sending children off to the reaches of darkness, but instead scriptures tell us, to allow the children to go to Jesus.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie