Absent from the body...

[ArtistforChrist]

The Scripture about the dead know nothing means they don't know what is happening on Earth.

Revelation 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

This is before the Resurrection of the Dead, and the Souls of the myrtered are conscious under God's Throne.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist <><

[PreciousRubi]

onwingsaseagles

Luke 16:19-31,the story of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus,when they died they went straight to the after life one to ''Abraham's bosom'' and one to hell.

Luke 23:43 Jesus told the thief one the cross,TODAY you will be with me in paradise.

2nd cor 5:8,The scripture you have quoting in the title of this thread,To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23-23,vs 23 For I am in a straight betwixt two,having a desire to depart,and be with Christ;which is far better, vs 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Jesus knew that the very day of his death he would go directly into the after life.Also Paul knew that the very moment his soul left his body he would be with the Lord.

Jesus wasn't telling the thief he would be in paradise that day,because he told us in Mt 12:40 that he would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth,so he couldn't have been talking about going to paradise that same day.If you move the coma it reads: And Jesus said unto him,verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.So either Jesus was mistaken in Mt 12:40 or everyone else is,who do you believe?

Where do you think ''paradise'' was?It was in the belly of the earth where Lazarus the beggar went in Luke 16 across from hell Luke 16:26.

We are changing commas around now because where they are does not fit our doctrine,how sad.

There was no puncutaion in the original Greek text.

All punctiation was added by translators...and it is very clear from just that one passage, what a difference the placement of a simple comma can make, completetly changing the meaning of a text.

Before I used scripture to prove if we go directly to heaven or not when we die...I would recommend a Hebrew and Greek word study of several key words: SOUL, SPIRIT, HELL.

These three words are misunderstood and misued in our english translations.

Edited November 24, 2007 by PreciousRubi

[kat8585]

The Scripture about the dead know nothing means they don't know what is happening on Earth.

Then what about the texts that say their thoughts perish, they have no more love, hate, etc. If they are in heaven, surely they have love.

[Massorite]

Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

You just made that up to fit your theology. We do have a record of righteous man who died and was not just asleep and unaware. The prophet Samuel came up, from I assume was Abraham's bosom, and spoke to King Saul (I Sam 28). He complained that Saul had "disquieted" him. That word in the Hebrew does not remotely imply having been asleep or unaware but being annoyed that Saul had called him up.

I can understand an honest disagreement over a Scripture, but to just make something up like that is intellectually dishonest.

Greg.

Now you are confident or man enough to accuse me of making something up to fit my theology which is the same thing as accusing me of teaching falsely. But are you godly, humble enough to admit you were wrong and apologize.

I do apologize for upsetting you. I could have worded my statement in a less offensive way. I'm sorry.

However, I do believe what I said is true. That being said, this whole topic is certainly divisive and, let's face it, it is all just an intellectual exercises anyway.

I don't see that it has any baring on our salvation or our responsibility to walk with the Lord in accordance with His word. So, I think I'll retire from this topic. I don't want to offend anyone else over something so relatively inconsequential.

Greg.

Perhaps the word sleep was the only way they were able to explain being gone from the body while still living on...afterall no one actually dies. paul talks about being brought up to the third heaven, being asleep he thinks but not really knowing if he really was. Lazarus was aware of where he was but not what was about to happen when Jesus called him forth...anybody who has been in the heavens knows that earth is the least on the mind.

The only way to know for sure if the word 'sleep" actually is speaking about sleeping is to do the research on the word "sleep" in that or any other particular verse. If the word is translated "awake" then the word sleep means "to be awake". If the word "sleep" is translated "sleeping" as in doing the same thing we do every night. Then Lazarus was sleeping just as the bible says he did.

According to my research tools the words "sleep, rest, resting, sleeps or sleeping" are all speaking of the act of sleeping as in unawares of what is going on around you just as we do at night in the Greek, the Aramaic and the Hebrew.

So unless these bible dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances I use are wrong the word "SLEEP" is speaking of exactly what the word says. Some who is sleeping which means that Lazarus was sleeping and that is according to the words that actually came out of the mouth of your Lord and Saviour.

[Massorite]

Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

You just made that up to fit your theology.

[kat8585]

The Scripture about the dead know nothing means they don't know what is happening on Earth.

Then what about the texts that say their thoughts perish, they have no more love, hate, etc. If they are in heaven, surely they have love.

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[Christian]

Then what about the texts that say their thoughts perish, they have no more love, hate, etc. If they are in heaven, surely they have love. Does anyone know the answer to this?

What "texts" are you referring to Ellie?

[kat8585]

Then what about the texts that say their thoughts perish, they have no more love, hate, etc. If they are in heaven, surely they have love. Does anyone know the answer to this?

What "texts" are you referring to Ellie?

I'll have to look them up. I don't know where my concordance is.

[AnotherTraveler]

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee:

in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Mark 12:27 (KJV)

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Matt 17:3 (KJV)

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 6:9-11 (KJV)

[eric]

To Masserite from post #20,

Hi there, I didn't want quote the whole post, just a couple of points that took my interest, but firstly I would agree that this particular subject can be emotional for some so I'm not going to take sides with anyone.

you posted,

Most believe that when we die we go directly to heaven but there is not one single verse written anywhere in the bible that tells us that "when we die we will go to heaven"

.

I agree with that. The thousand year reign with Christ occurs before anyone gets to heaven, as I understand the word. now later, in the same post you wrote,

Charles Stanley is one of the most powerful, nationally known pastors in our country. His ministry is blessed by God and he preaches into the lives of millions of believers every week. One day I heard him state on national television "You get your name written in the Lambs book of life when you get saved." You know there is nowhere in the word of God where that is written.

.

Well I have to agree on both counts in that statement. Charles Stanley IMO is one of the best teachers of the word you could find, but like all men, he can only preach from what he has learned during his training, or from a different stand point. I have no reason to believe that one's name is written in the book of life at salvation. It's nowhere to be found in the bible.

I'm afraid, but I am one of the people that believe one's name is written at the moment of one's conception and is erased if one has not the Son, at death 1Jn5:9-13.

Some times it doesn't hurt to encourage one another, when you agree with a bro or sis.

cheers,

eric