Absent from the body...

[Guest Greg Davies]

This is an OT scripture that is prophesing the future resurrection.Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake ,some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

These scriptures are refering to the body, the redemption of the body, the resurrection of the body, the same context as those who are alive and remain being changed in a twinkling of an eye. That's why I Thess 4:14 and 16 are not contradictory. Those who are a sleep (dead) He will bring with Him from heaven (their spirit and soul) and their bodies will be raised incorruptible, and they will also receive their glorified bodies as those who were changed. I can't tell you how this happens, but I bleieve it. The story of Lazarus the begger makes it clear that after death there is awareness for the soul in whatever place you may be in. The story is not a parable or an allegory, but Jesus is talking about real people.

Greg.

[Massorite]

onwingsaseagles

[Massorite]

This is an OT scripture that is prophesing the future resurrection.Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake ,some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

These scriptures are refering to the body, the redemption of the body, the resurrection of the body, the same context as those who are alive and remain being changed in a twinkling of an eye. That's why I Thess 4:14 and 16 are not contradictory. Those who are a sleep (dead) He will bring with Him from heaven (their spirit and soul) and their bodies will be raised incorruptible, and they will also receive their glorified bodies as those who were changed. I can't tell you how this happens, but I bleieve it. The story of Lazarus the begger makes it clear that after death there is awareness for the soul in whatever place you may be in. The story is not a parable or an allegory, but Jesus is talking about real people.

Greg.

While it is true that the rich man is aware, Lazarus never says a word and Abraham does all of the talking. Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

[Massorite]

I will also re-frame this discussion and open it up a bit.

You see my intention is to examine the responses, as they pertain to definite scriptural examples...not learned positions or opinions. I'm curious how you would go about communicating this subject to the un-saved who do not possess the Bible background that we might. So by using "scripture to interpret scripture" it cuts down on the "personal license" we might use in discussing it, which in turn would cut down on their confusion over our inconsistencies in presenting it to them.

And please do not fall back into 1 Corinthians 2:14 as some means to explain their inability to comprehend. I have known saved Christians who have struggled to grasp this concept.

So as a lawyer character in well known movie once stated..."OK, I'm having trouble grasping this, so why don't you go ahead and explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old".

Depart from any overcomplicated pious exegesis and try to bring your case down to the point that a laymen could understand you.

Onward and upward,

His faithful servant,

Christian

Christian I believe that to try and explain the "Absent from the body" concept would be very confusing for a brand new convert let alone some one who is unsaved and I believe that unless the new convert or the unsaved ask us about it the topic should be avoided until the young in Christ are grown enough to grasp even the beginning of the understanding of the concept. This stuff is for those who eat meat and not for those who are still suckling.

[Massorite]

I will also re-frame this discussion and open it up a bit.

You see my intention is to examine the responses, as they pertain to definite scriptural examples...not learned positions or opinions. I'm curious how you would go about communicating this subject to the un-saved who do not possess the Bible background that we might. So by using "scripture to interpret scripture" it cuts down on the "personal license" we might use in discussing it, which in turn would cut down on their confusion over our inconsistencies in presenting it to them.

And please do not fall back into 1 Corinthians 2:14 as some means to explain their inability to comprehend. I have known saved Christians who have struggled to grasp this concept.

So as a lawyer character in well known movie once stated..."OK, I'm having trouble grasping this, so why don't you go ahead and explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old".

Depart from any overcomplicated pious exegesis and try to bring your case down to the point that a laymen could understand you.

Onward and upward,

His faithful servant,

Christian

Christian I believe that to try and explain the "Absent from the body" concept would be very confusing for a brand new convert let alone some one who is unsaved and I believe that unless the new convert or the unsaved ask us about it the topic should be avoided until the young in Christ are grown enough to grasp even the beginning of the understanding of the concept. This stuff is for those who eat meat and not for those who are still suckling.

[Guest Greg Davies]

Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

You just made that up to fit your theology. We do have a record of righteous man who died and was not just asleep and unaware. The prophet Samuel came up, from I assume was Abrahams bosom, and spoke to King Saul (I Sam 28). He complained that Saul had "disquieted" him. That word in the hebrew does not remotely imply having been asleep or unaware but being annoyed that Saul had called him up.

I can understand an honest disagreement over a scipture, but to just make something up like that is intellecually dishonest.

Greg.

[patricia1]

Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

You just made that up to fit your theology. We do have a record of righteous man who died and was not just asleep and unaware. The prophet Samuel came up, from I assume was Abrahams bosom, and spoke to King Saul (I Sam 28). He complained that Saul had "disquieted" him. That word in the hebrew does not remotely imply having been asleep or unaware but being annoyed that Saul had called him up.

I can understand an honest disagreement over a scipture, but to just make something up like that is intellecually dishonest.

Greg.

one scripture hmmmm.... this is interesting....besides being absent in the body we are present with the Lord..knowing Jesus is in heaven hmmm

I like Philippians I enjoy pauls writing about us already being citizens of heaven but i will have to go with philippans 3:21. who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His Glory, by exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself!!

How'd I do?

[Massorite]

Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

You just made that up to fit your theology. We do have a record of righteous man who died and was not just asleep and unaware. The prophet Samuel came up, from I assume was Abraham's bosom, and spoke to King Saul (I Sam 28). He complained that Saul had "disquieted" him. That word in the Hebrew does not remotely imply having been asleep or unaware but being annoyed that Saul had called him up.

I can understand an honest disagreement over a Scripture, but to just make something up like that is intellectually dishonest.

Greg.

Not only does the word "disquieted" mean annoyed it also means in the Hebrew to be agitated, quiver, quake, to be exited, perturbed, to be provoked to wrath and lastly to be DISTURBED and if I was woken up from my rest in Christ I would be perturbed also. So here is the bottom line Greg. Just because the rich man is aware don't mean that Lazarus was aware so PROVE me wrong. Put your scripture where your mouth is and show some scripture that says beyond the Shadow of a doubt that Lazarus was awake, aware, perturbed, disquieted, moved or was conciece enough to just hear what the rich man was saying. Or answer me this. Why did the rich man ask Abraham to ask Lazarus to bring a drop of water to him? Why didn't the rich ask Lazarus directly? And why couldn't Lazarus simply speak for him self.

I'll tell youi why. Because Lazarus wasn't moving, speaking, talking, listening or AWARE of what was going on and the rich man addressed his whole conversation to Abraham because he could see that Lazarus was resting/sleeping in the bossom of Abraham.

If it is not in the bible it does not exist and you sir are aqusing me of what you are guilty of.

I deal in scripture only so show me some to back up your belief.

In the book of Daniel 12:13 the bible says "Bu t go your way till the end be for you shall REST and stand in your lot at the end of the days". Here the word REST in the Hebrew means "to sleep" and the word lot means "ministry". So at this point in time Daniel is sleeping until he will stand in his ministry at the end of days.

I decided to edit my answer here and give you some more scripture. Luke 16;25 The word "comfort" in this verse does not speak of talking but is a form of comforting that is done as such. A way to comfort not by using words but by the feeling of a happier lot or feeling. IE to refresh or cheer which is not speaking of talking but a peaceful feeling.

John 11:11 "These things said He (Jesus) and after that He said to them, 'Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS; but I go that I may awake him out of SLEEP.

Holy Moly! Jesus him self says that Lazarus is sleeping while he was in the grave. I would say that this verse is proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that Lazarus was sleeping while the rich man was taking to Lazarus.

Luke 8:52 ' And all wept and bewailed her: but He (Jesus) said 'weep not; she is not dead, but sleeps. Here Jesus states that someone who is dead is actually sleeping instead and the same declaration is made about this maiden in Matthew 9:24 and Mark 5:39.

Now you are confident or man enough to accuse me of making something up to fit my theology which is the same thing as accuseing me of teaching falsely. But are you godly, humble enough to admit you were wrong and apologize.

[Guest Greg Davies]

Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

You just made that up to fit your theology. We do have a record of righteous man who died and was not just asleep and unaware. The prophet Samuel came up, from I assume was Abraham's bosom, and spoke to King Saul (I Sam 28). He complained that Saul had "disquieted" him. That word in the Hebrew does not remotely imply having been asleep or unaware but being annoyed that Saul had called him up.

I can understand an honest disagreement over a Scripture, but to just make something up like that is intellectually dishonest.

Greg.

Now you are confident or man enough to accuse me of making something up to fit my theology which is the same thing as accuseing me of teaching falsely. But are you godly, humble enough to admit you were wrong and apologize.

I do apologize for upsetting you. I could have worded my statement in a less offensive way. I'm sorry.

However, I do believe what I said is true. That being said, this whole topic is certainly divisive and, let's face it, it is all just an intellectual excercise anyway.

I don't see that it has any baring on our salvation or our responsiblty to walk with the Lord in accordance with His word. So, I think I'll retire from this topic. I don't want to offend anyone else over something so relatively inconsequential.

Greg.

[patricia1]

Lazarus is resting/sleeping through out the whole conversation and is totally unaware of anything that is being said.

You just made that up to fit your theology. We do have a record of righteous man who died and was not just asleep and unaware. The prophet Samuel came up, from I assume was Abraham's bosom, and spoke to King Saul (I Sam 28). He complained that Saul had "disquieted" him. That word in the Hebrew does not remotely imply having been asleep or unaware but being annoyed that Saul had called him up.

I can understand an honest disagreement over a Scripture, but to just make something up like that is intellectually dishonest.

Greg.

Now you are confident or man enough to accuse me of making something up to fit my theology which is the same thing as accuseing me of teaching falsely. But are you godly, humble enough to admit you were wrong and apologize.

I do apologize for upsetting you. I could have worded my statement in a less offensive way. I'm sorry.

However, I do believe what I said is true. That being said, this whole topic is certainly divisive and, let's face it, it is all just an intellectual excercise anyway.

I don't see that it has any baring on our salvation or our responsiblty to walk with the Lord in accordance with His word. So, I think I'll retire from this topic. I don't want to offend anyone else over something so relatively inconsequential.

Greg.

Perhaps the word sleep was the only way they were able to explain being gone from the body while still living on...afterall no one actually dies. paul talks about being brought up to the third heaven, being asleep he thinks but not really knowing if he really was. Lazarus was aware of where he was but not what was about to happen when Jesus called him forth...anybody who has been in the heavens knows that earth is the least on the mind.