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The seven seals


Isa

Opening of the seven seals  

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  1. 1. do you think the seven seals are opened before the seven trumpets are played

    • yes
      14
    • no
      1
    • maybe
      1
    • indifferent
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I know this is not the topic of the thread, but I disagree with the interpretation that the first seal is the unleashing of the Anti-Christ. It seems out of place to have the first rider be an actual person, and the other 3 to be symbols. Likewise, there appears to be no correlation between the rider on the white horse and the Beast that arises from the sea (ch. 13).

It makes sense that the first seal is a false peace, the spirit of conquest, or even a holy war. But the Anti-Christ? The correlations do not exist.

The one who brings this false peace is not revealed(the anti-christ) until the restraint is taken away and he sets himself up as God in the temple. If you look it is the dragon that gives this beast the power to do the things he does. ust as Satan enterd Judas so that he would betray the Lord.

Anti- Christ is anyone who is against Christ.

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The one who brings this false peace is not revealed(the anti-christ) until the restraint is taken away and he sets himself up as God in the temple.

And I still don't read this in the opening of the 1st seal.

You are going to have to explain this one.

If you look it is the dragon that gives this beast the power to do the things he does. ust as Satan enterd Judas so that he would betray the Lord.

True, but it does not say thi sin the opening of the 1st seal.

Anti- Christ is anyone who is against Christ.

True, but when we say "the Anti-Christ" we mean the ultimate one.

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I know this is not the topic of the thread, but I disagree with the interpretation that the first seal is the unleashing of the Anti-Christ. It seems out of place to have the first rider be an actual person, and the other 3 to be symbols. Likewise, there appears to be no correlation between the rider on the white horse and the Beast that arises from the sea (ch. 13).

It makes sense that the first seal is a false peace, the spirit of conquest, or even a holy war. But the Anti-Christ? The correlations do not exist.

Satan comes as a knight in shining armor. He always appears to be the saviour at first. In the bible a white horse is always a symbol of victory. Also in the bible certain spirits are spoken of as a he or a she and in the case of the first seal, the spirit is the spirit of antichrist given to a man who is given a crown, who has a bow but does not have the power to kill. The question here is what good is a bow if you don,t have any arrows to kill with? And the answer is a bluff. Kind of like the Indians of the old west who would whop and yell shaking their bow as they road. The purpose is to psyche out. It is the same thing as rattling the sabers. Satan is the great copycat who wants to mimic/be like God. When the antichrist comes he will claim to be Jesus and declare that the real Jesus was a fake.

You should ask your self why a crown would be given to a false peace? And if so what would the crown represent or what purpose would it serve?

Verse two also says that this 'he who rides on the white horse will go out conquering and to conquering. So who or what will he be going out to conquer and conquering.

Many people assume that the words conquer and conquering speak of war but they don't. The words conquer and conquering are speaking of the hearts and minds of the people of the world. In other words conquer and conquering are speaking about satans efforts to deceive the whole would into believing that he is the true son of God snet by God to save the world from itself.

And so it is withe rest of the horses. The red horse will have the spirit of war but who will make war. Men will. The black horse will have the spirit of poverty and starvation but who will make the world fall into starvation/famine and poverty? Men will when they make war with each other. Next we have the pale horse which represents the spirit of disease which is the result of war and famine. You see it is all connected to men. Even though the horses symbolism it will be men who carry out what the symbolism speaks of.

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... In the bible a white horse is always a symbol of victory.

Would you please show me the reference to this? I have never seen this anywhere that I can recall.

Also in the bible certain spirits are spoken of as a he or a she

Would you please explain this one as well?

and in the case of the first seal, the spirit is the spirit of antichrist given to a man who is given a crown, who has a bow but does not have the power to kill.

Again, I see a claim with no evidence. How is it you can conclude this is the spirit of antichrist.

The question here is what good is a bow if you don,t have any arrows to kill with? And the answer is a bluff. Kind of like the Indians of the old west who would whop and yell shaking their bow as they road. The purpose is to psyche out. It is the same thing as rattling the sabers. Satan is the great copycat who wants to mimic/be like God. When the antichrist comes he will claim to be Jesus and declare that the real Jesus was a fake.

You made a good case for the ability of the white horse and its rider to be deceivers, but again, the passage states nothing about its conquest.

You should ask your self why a crown would be given to a false peace? And if so what would the crown represent or what purpose would it serve?

Verse two also says that this 'he who rides on the white horse will go out conquering and to conquering. So who or what will he be going out to conquer and conquering.

Many people assume that the words conquer and conquering speak of war but they don't. The words conquer and conquering are speaking of the hearts and minds of the people of the world. In other words conquer and conquering are speaking about satans efforts to deceive the whole would into believing that he is the true son of God snet by God to save the world from itself.

I have to disagree with you again here. I would say the whole world is being swayed into PC deception . . . and there is not visible AntiChrist leading the deception.

I agree with the possibility of this being a capturing of the hearts and minds, but the AC is not the only deception the world is or can be held sway under.

If anything, it makes more sense that the deception prepares the way for war (red horse) which prepares the way for famine which prepares the way for pestilence and disease. And then, the AC shows up as the "savior" from our own self-destruction.

And so it is withe rest of the horses. The red horse will have the spirit of war but who will make war. Men will. The black horse will have the spirit of poverty and starvation but who will make the world fall into starvation/famine and poverty? Men will when they make war with each other. Next we have the pale horse which represents the spirit of disease which is the result of war and famine. You see it is all connected to men. Even though the horses symbolism it will be men who carry out what the symbolism speaks of.

Covered in my above response.

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The one who brings this false peace is not revealed(the anti-christ) until the restraint is taken away and he sets himself up as God in the temple.

And I still don't read this in the opening of the 1st seal.

You are going to have to explain this one.

If you look it is the dragon that gives this beast the power to do the things he does. ust as Satan enterd Judas so that he would betray the Lord.

True, but it does not say thi sin the opening of the 1st seal.

Anti- Christ is anyone who is against Christ.

True, but when we say "the Anti-Christ" we mean the ultimate one.

This one comes with peace and then breaks the peace treaty half way through.

Daniel 11:21-24, 31-39

21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. 22 With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant.23 And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people. 24 He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time.

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

36

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... In the bible a white horse is always a symbol of victory.

Would you please show me the reference to this? I have never seen this anywhere that I can recall.

Also in the bible certain spirits are spoken of as a he or a she

Would you please explain this one as well?

and in the case of the first seal, the spirit is the spirit of antichrist given to a man who is given a crown, who has a bow but does not have the power to kill.

Again, I see a claim with no evidence. How is it you can conclude this is the spirit of antichrist.

The question here is what good is a bow if you don,t have any arrows to kill with? And the answer is a bluff. Kind of like the Indians of the old west who would whop and yell shaking their bow as they road. The purpose is to psyche out. It is the same thing as rattling the sabers. Satan is the great copycat who wants to mimic/be like God. When the antichrist comes he will claim to be Jesus and declare that the real Jesus was a fake.

You made a good case for the ability of the white horse and its rider to be deceivers, but again, the passage states nothing about its conquest.

You should ask your self why a crown would be given to a false peace? And if so what would the crown represent or what purpose would it serve?

Verse two also says that this 'he who rides on the white horse will go out conquering and to conquering. So who or what will he be going out to conquer and conquering.

Many people assume that the words conquer and conquering speak of war but they don't. The words conquer and conquering are speaking of the hearts and minds of the people of the world. In other words conquer and conquering are speaking about satans efforts to deceive the whole would into believing that he is the true son of God sent by God to save the world from itself.

I have to disagree with you again here. I would say the whole world is being swayed into PC deception . . . and there is not visible AntiChrist leading the deception.

I agree with the possibility of this being a capturing of the hearts and minds, but the AC is not the only deception the world is or can be held sway under.

If anything, it makes more sense that the deception prepares the way for war (red horse) which prepares the way for famine which prepares the way for pestilence and disease. And then, the AC shows up as the "savior" from our own self-destruction.

And so it is withe rest of the horses. The red horse will have the spirit of war but who will make war. Men will. The black horse will have the spirit of poverty and starvation but who will make the world fall into starvation/famine and poverty? Men will when they make war with each other. Next we have the pale horse which represents the spirit of disease which is the result of war and famine. You see it is all connected to men. Even though the horses symbolism it will be men who carry out what the symbolism speaks of.

Covered in my above response.

To better understand scripture one must research and study Jewish customs, beliefs, and traditions. We should remember that when Jesus spoke to the Jews He was speaking to them in a way they could understand. An example of something that Jesus knew the Jews would understand that we would not understand by simply reading the bible is this. In Mark 6:11 Jesus tells us that we should shake off the dust under our feet when we depart from those who do not receive or hear us. It is a symbolic act for us but for the Jew it meant more. In the days of Jesus the Jew considered all of the ground in there country to be holy ground so when they would cross over from one land to their land they would shake the dust off of their feet because the dust from other countries was considered unholy ground by the pious Jew. Unless one does the research one does not get the full jest of what Jesus was saying but we still get the point.

This is where I got my info about the white horse and indeed when Jesus comes on a white horse in Revelation 19:11. Though the white horse represents victory we need to remember that in 6:2 the bible is speaking about a false victory ride with a of the trappings to go along with it including a white horse.

I tell everybody who reads my stuff. Don't take my word for it. Do the research and find out for your self if I am telling the truth or not.

A good example of a spirit being called a "he" in the bible is in Matthew 12:43-45 where an unclean spirit is called a "he" more then once. In John 14:16 the Holy Spirit is called a "He" and also in verse 17.

There is a place in the bible where a spirit of some kind is called a "she" also but it will take some time to find it.

You are correct in that the deception prepares the way for war and war prepares the way for famine and famine prepares the way for pestilence and disease.

But war is specifically made against the people of God under the antichrist and a contract of peace is made with Israel during the first three and one half years of the seven.

Anything that opposes that which God stands for, has or is the spirit of antichrist and since the appearance of the antichrist on the world scene happens before all of the bad stuff take place, which is what verse two is talking about. The bible is speaking about a rider who has the spirit of antichrist and is a real person.

In the Strong's the word 'conquer" #3528 means to subdue, overcome, prevail, or to get the victory. In the Thayer's Greek Lexicon the word conquer in that verse speaks of one who wants to "come off victorious" IE one who wants to appear victorious.

I don't just blurt out stuff. I do the research before I speak which is what the bible tells us to do. Study to be proved.

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... In the bible a white horse is always a symbol of victory.

Would you please show me the reference to this? I have never seen this anywhere that I can recall.

Also in the bible certain spirits are spoken of as a he or a she

Would you please explain this one as well?

and in the case of the first seal, the spirit is the spirit of antichrist given to a man who is given a crown, who has a bow but does not have the power to kill.

Again, I see a claim with no evidence. How is it you can conclude this is the spirit of antichrist.

The question here is what good is a bow if you don,t have any arrows to kill with? And the answer is a bluff. Kind of like the Indians of the old west who would whop and yell shaking their bow as they road. The purpose is to psyche out. It is the same thing as rattling the sabers. Satan is the great copycat who wants to mimic/be like God. When the antichrist comes he will claim to be Jesus and declare that the real Jesus was a fake.

You made a good case for the ability of the white horse and its rider to be deceivers, but again, the passage states nothing about its conquest.

You should ask your self why a crown would be given to a false peace? And if so what would the crown represent or what purpose would it serve?

Verse two also says that this 'he who rides on the white horse will go out conquering and to conquering. So who or what will he be going out to conquer and conquering.

Many people assume that the words conquer and conquering speak of war but they don't. The words conquer and conquering are speaking of the hearts and minds of the people of the world. In other words conquer and conquering are speaking about satans efforts to deceive the whole would into believing that he is the true son of God sent by God to save the world from itself.

I have to disagree with you again here. I would say the whole world is being swayed into PC deception . . . and there is not visible AntiChrist leading the deception.

I agree with the possibility of this being a capturing of the hearts and minds, but the AC is not the only deception the world is or can be held sway under.

If anything, it makes more sense that the deception prepares the way for war (red horse) which prepares the way for famine which prepares the way for pestilence and disease. And then, the AC shows up as the "savior" from our own self-destruction.

And so it is withe rest of the horses. The red horse will have the spirit of war but who will make war. Men will. The black horse will have the spirit of poverty and starvation but who will make the world fall into starvation/famine and poverty? Men will when they make war with each other. Next we have the pale horse which represents the spirit of disease which is the result of war and famine. You see it is all connected to men. Even though the horses symbolism it will be men who carry out what the symbolism speaks of.

Covered in my above response.

To better understand scripture one must research and study Jewish customs, beliefs, and traditions. We should remember that when Jesus spoke to the Jews He was speaking to them in a way they could understand. An example of something that Jesus knew the Jews would understand that we would not understand by simply reading the bible is this. In Mark 6:11 Jesus tells us that we should shake off the dust under our feet when we depart from those who do not receive or hear us. It is a symbolic act for us but for the Jew it meant more. In the days of Jesus the Jew considered all of the ground in there country to be holy ground so when they would cross over from one land to their land they would shake the dust off of their feet because the dust from other countries was considered unholy ground by the pious Jew. Unless one does the research one does not get the full jest of what Jesus was saying but we still get the point.

This is where I got my info about the white horse and indeed when Jesus comes on a white horse in Revelation 19:11. Though the white horse represents victory we need to remember that in 6:2 the bible is speaking about a false victory ride with a of the trappings to go along with it including a white horse.

I tell everybody who reads my stuff. Don't take my word for it. Do the research and find out for your self if I am telling the truth or not.

A good example of a spirit being called a "he" in the bible is in Matthew 12:43-45 where an unclean spirit is called a "he" more then once. In John 14:16 the Holy Spirit is called a "He" and also in verse 17.

There is a place in the bible where a spirit of some kind is called a "she" also but it will take some time to find it.

You are correct in that the deception prepares the way for war and war prepares the way for famine and famine prepares the way for pestilence and disease.

But war is specifically made against the people of God under the antichrist and a contract of peace is made with Israel during the first three and one half years of the seven.

Anything that opposes that which God stands for, has or is the spirit of antichrist and since the appearance of the antichrist on the world scene happens before all of the bad stuff take place, which is what verse two is talking about. The bible is speaking about a rider who has the spirit of antichrist and is a real person.

In the Strong's the word 'conquer" #3528 means to subdue, overcome, prevail, or to get the victory. In the Thayer's Greek Lexicon the word conquer in that verse speaks of one who wants to "come off victorious" IE one who wants to appear victorious.

I don't just blurt out stuff. I do the research before I speak which is what the bible tells us to do. Study to be proved.

Hi Massorite,

You are right we do need to study to find ourselves proved. I find I have to stop at times when I am writing about something to see is that what the Lord is saying or is that what I want it to say. I don't like to post if I have doubt about what I am writing about the word of God. I would prefer to know what it is saying before I let my fingers do the talking. I have this fear if I write something wrong I will get a big slap of the Father and not only that I would be reflecting the wrong teaching and that is a no no in my books.

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No offense, guys - but it still looks to me like you are reading into the text something that isn't there.

Isa - The claims about the Beast (whom we tend to call the Anti-Christ) are not mentioned in the opening of the first seal.

Again, as I showed above, there's already a mindset that is conquering the world (PC, Globalism). So, this conqueror bent on conquest could very easily be something other than the big AC himself.

Massorite - the opening of the second seal says nothing about the war targeting anyone in particular. In fact, what it says is: "and that people should kill one another" (6:4). This does not sound like a war targeting the people of God. In fact, the war against the people of God does not come until the opening of the 5th seal ("I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." vs. 9)

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B y the way,

To better understand scripture one must research and study Jewish customs, beliefs, and traditions....

I agree with this. However, I have never heard of white symbolizing victory. I have only seen white symbolizing purity in Scripture (i.e. sins being made as white as snow, white garments).

Do the research and find out for your self if I am telling the truth or not.

Sure - but where would I find this research?

A good example of a spirit being called a "he" in the bible is in Matthew 12:43-45 where an unclean spirit is called a "he" more then once. In John 14:16 the Holy Spirit is called a "He" and also in verse 17.

There is a place in the bible where a spirit of some kind is called a "she" also but it will take some time to find it.

Please do. I am curious.

(Although I do not see the relevance to this discussion, I like learning little facts like this.)

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No offense, guys - but it still looks to me like you are reading into the text something that isn't there.

Isa - The claims about the Beast (whom we tend to call the Anti-Christ) are not mentioned in the opening of the first seal.

Again, as I showed above, there's already a mindset that is conquering the world (PC, Globalism). So, this conqueror bent on conquest could very easily be something other than the big AC himself.

Massorite - the opening of the second seal says nothing about the war targeting anyone in particular. In fact, what it says is: "and that people should kill one another" (6:4). This does not sound like a war targeting the people of God. In fact, the war against the people of God does not come until the opening of the 5th seal ("I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." vs. 9)

Okay the one that brings in the seven yrs peace who is he?

This one that brings in this peace treaty seems to break it half way through and causes the sacrifices in the temple to cease and then begins a war against Israel. He sets himself up as God in the temple

Daniel 9:27

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Revelation 13:4-7

4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying,

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