Works / Faith in the Believer

[Ovedya]

Correct me if i am wrong but i assume you to and others that believe in OSAS are also predestination believers.

You believe in predestination as taught by calvinist,is the correct?

Shalom,

Yes, I'll correct you because you're wrong.

First off, I'm not OSAS.

Secondly, I'm not calvinist.

Thirdly, neither are the topic of this thread. Please, stay on topic. Thanks!

So you believe that a person CAN turn from God and loose their salvation after accepting him as Lord?

Please....stay on track. OSAS is not a part of this discussion.

[Ovedya]

Shalom Suzanne,

Is this the root of your other thread questions concerning works?

Are you saying that if a Believer does not do good works, they lose their salvation?

If not, please say what you are REALLY saying so I can understand your position and get to the real issues. Thank you.

Anyone else care to comment on this issue?

Vickilynn,

First off what are people's definitions of what good "works" are? I have read different ideas here, but I think that it needs to be defined as to what "works" are before we can determine if they are required.

I think that works have already been pretty well defined in this thread, cc, but I'll refer you back to my response here and to a response of mine from another thread:

According to those who believe that works is necessary to sustain salvation, James 2:17 is interpreted "salvation without works is lost." But in fact, "faith without works is dead..." means no such thing. According to the proper interpretation, "dead" simply means "inoperative." Therefore faith and works go hand-in-hand as the twofold "engine" which causes believers to "grow up into Him" (Eph. 4:15). It is not that, without works, faith disappears and then must be regained by the believer. It is merely that works brought into function through faith sustains and enlivens the faith of the believer, causing him to grow and mature int he divine life.

A branch bears fruit after it's own kind (That is, after the tree's own kind) according to the life supply from the tree. A branch that is receiving a full supply from the tree will bear much fruit. A branch that is not receiving the full supply of the tree will not bear fruit.

As branches of the vine (Christ) our fruit bearing (works) is dependent upon the amount of supply (That is the supply of the divine life) we receive from the vine. A believer who is fully engaged with gaining Christ is supplied with the divine life, and produces fruits according to his measure of faith. Any works apart from the vine are simply products of the flesh and are not profitable for the kingdom; even if those works are deemed "good" in man's eyes.

[Guest Biblicist]

John 17 (words of Christ in red)

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name

[Guest Biblicist]

Something occured to me yesterday about "Baby" Christians.

When a baby is born, human baby, by natural birth. That baby is swadled, cuddled, held, fed, loved, cared for. Completely taken care of. They are ooed and aahed over, their birth is rejoiced over and as they grow someone is there to help them when they fall and to guide them as they walk.

Even if the baby makes messes, there is still love, acceptance, and the messes are cleaned up so they can make them all over again. No one would ever expect an infant, or even a toddler to change their own diaper.

Yet! When a Baby Christian is born of Spirutal Birth, everyone [not everyone] expects them to act like an Adult Christian. There is no gentle cuddling or holding. No feeding or tender loving care. They are not wrapped and protected from the attacks from the Enemy.

No one is there to love and guide. What do they need that for? They get a cursory, "YEAH, You're saved"...Then it's, "Hey, we need you in this ministry can you work every other Sunday?"

They are expected to feed themselves, and if they don't get it right, they are rudely corrected and treated like fools. They are not only expceted to walk on their own, from the beginning but they are also expected to choose the right path.

If a Baby Christian makes a mess in their life, they are scoffed at, scorned, ridiculed for "Maybe not really being saved." OR told, horror of horrors...They have LOST their salvation. How discouraging.

Imagine if we treated our "babies" the way we treat Christian babies...What a world we would live in?

OK, what am I getting at, and how does this tie in with the OP? I'm getting to it, bare with me.

When someone is born again, they need guidance, it is not possible for them to go it alone. Yet if they do not receive the help they need, how can they learn? We have no right to ridicule them for their behaviour, lack of works in Christ Jesus, if we have never taught them.

Jesus would not have called the Word, "milk" and "meat" if it is meant for everyone at all times during their walk with Him. There are stages we go through in our Christianity. In the beginning we need milk, and we need to be fed. As we grow, we can handle the meat and we can find it for ourselves.

How wrong it is of us to scorn new baby Christians that have never been fed the "milk" of the Word.

So, rather than worrying about what "works" they are doing for Christ, we should focus more on their WALK with Christ. The closer their walk becomes to Him, the more their works will reflect that, and become more evident.

Sorry for the length of this post...

[Emily~Anne]

Wow, that is an awesome post Bibs, and I thank you for taking the time to type that out!

[Guest Biblicist]

Wow, that is an awesome post Bibs, and I thank you for taking the time to type that out!

Thanks. All of the praise goes to the LORD!

Honestly, it didn't really take me that long, it would have taken me less time if I hadn't had to keep checking on what Madera is getting into.

[OneLight]

Something occured to me yesterday about "Baby" Christians.

When a baby is born, human baby, by natural birth. That baby is swadled, cuddled, held, fed, loved, cared for. Completely taken care of. They are ooed and aahed over, their birth is rejoiced over and as they grow someone is there to help them when they fall and to guide them as they walk.

Even if the baby makes messes, there is still love, acceptance, and the messes are cleaned up so they can make them all over again. No one would ever expect an infant, or even a toddler to change their own diaper.

Yet! When a Baby Christian is born of Spirutal Birth, everyone [not everyone] expects them to act like an Adult Christian. There is no gentle cuddling or holding. No feeding or tender loving care. They are not wrapped and protected from the attacks from the Enemy.

No one is there to love and guide. What do they need that for? They get a cursory, "YEAH, You're saved"...Then it's, "Hey, we need you in this ministry can you work every other Sunday?"

They are expected to feed themselves, and if they don't get it right, they are rudely corrected and treated like fools. They are not only expceted to walk on their own, from the beginning but they are also expected to choose the right path.

If a Baby Christian makes a mess in their life, they are scoffed at, scorned, ridiculed for "Maybe not really being saved." OR told, horror of horrors...They have LOST their salvation. How discouraging.

Imagine if we treated our "babies" the way we treat Christian babies...What a world we would live in?

OK, what am I getting at, and how does this tie in with the OP? I'm getting to it, bare with me.

When someone is born again, they need guidance, it is not possible for them to go it alone. Yet if they do not receive the help they need, how can they learn? We have no right to ridicule them for their behaviour, lack of works in Christ Jesus, if we have never taught them.

Jesus would not have called the Word, "milk" and "meat" if it is meant for everyone at all times during their walk with Him. There are stages we go through in our Christianity. In the beginning we need milk, and we need to be fed. As we grow, we can handle the meat and we can find it for ourselves.

How wrong it is of us to scorn new baby Christians that have never been fed the "milk" of the Word.

So, rather than worrying about what "works" they are doing for Christ, we should focus more on their WALK with Christ. The closer their walk becomes to Him, the more their works will reflect that, and become more evident.

Sorry for the length of this post...

I love your Wisdom you brought to us through the Spirit, Sister.

[Guest chadic]

Shalom,

Well, ask this question then...

Do the Scriptures say that once we are saved (born-again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit), that we must do good works to maintain our salvation and if we don't, we are as lost as if we've never been born-again?

This is what some are saying.

I, for one, do not see that in the Scriptures.

This is what I see:

Ephesians 2

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

OK, so now we are saved. It is G-d's free gift. What now?

Well, the very next verse says:

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

And Jesus says it plainly:

John 14:

15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

So, there is no doubt that once we are saved, we are to walk in G-d's ways, according to His word and keep His commandments.

Are we all on the same page?

OK, here is where we have the difference: some people say that if we do NOT do good works, we lose our salvation.

I believe the Scriptures say that we are to walk closer daily to Jesus, walking in His ways, as empowered by the Holy Spirit. We are to ABIDE in Him (spirit to Spirit - not works) and as an outflowing of our hearts connected with Him, we will do more and more good works.

I do not believe the Scriptures state any place that if we do not do good works, we will lose our salvation.

i totally agree with you we are not saved by works but by faith and them that wanted salvation by works chrucified christ i agree with you sister am new my name is emmanuel

[Guest Biblicist]

I love your Wisdom you brought to us through the Spirit, Sister.

Thank you. Praise the LORD!

[Guest]

Work Work Work

The Devil's Work

Lying And

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

Accusing The Brethren Day And Night

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Revelation 12:10

Busy Busy Busy

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" 1 Peter 5:8

Man's Work

We Are All Filthy

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6

And Have Become Unprofitable

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:10-12

And Have Come Short Of The Glory Of God

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

God's Work

Jesus The Author And The Finisher Of Our Faith Who

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Even Upon The Cross At Calvary

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

Finished The Work Of Salvation

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:27-28

Jesus In Whom We Believe

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

And Who Is Our Brag And

"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;" 2 Corinthians 1:9-10

By Faith In Him

".... for by faith ye stand." 2 Corinthians 1:24

We Stand

Daises And Tulips Oh My

Strange Flowers In God's Garden

Where Men Try To Capture The Mind Of God

And Somehow Understand His Ways And The Power Of His Blood

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

The Rose And The Lily Are The Flowers I Truly Trust

"I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys." Song of Solomon 2:1

Simply Nothing Dearer Than God And His Gift

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2

And To Feast My Eyes Upon His Face

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9

For All Eternity

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." Revelation 22:3-4

Be Blessed Beloved Of The LORD

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe