Calvin vs. Arminius

[Rhonda Lou]

Just out of curiosity, how do you explain these verses in the Bible?

...

One of those which relates here has to do with free will. As I look at the Bible, Adam had a choice. The Isrealites whom God was around all of the time as an ark, a pillar of fire, a cloud, visions, prophets, whatever -- they had a choice. The believers have a choice and are told to live by the Spirit (inwardly) as opposed to the flesh. Unbelievers -- all they HAVE is flesh. THe Holy Spirit can work in their lives, but not IN them, they are dead in their sins. alien to God and strangers. God must first draw them. Those who have HEARD the gospel can choose to believe. I still believe, based on the above Scriptures, that God chooses who to save, and God works for that salvation, but ultimately, we do need to say yes. So, though I believe in predestination to the fullest and believe it has a much higher priority than free will, no person is saved until they actually say yes, so free will IS the final step towards salvation.

Excellent post Rhonda,

I think when it comes down to it, the really knit-picky verses that are swayed by one's own interpretation of the context and words, it's extremely, if not impossible, to know for sure. However I do feel it is proper to feel firm and confident in what you believe in. That being said, you present your interpretation very well and I admire that.

Thank you for all of your words of encouragement to me in different posts here. My prayer is that I have interpreted the Scriptures correctly, yet I don't see how else they can be interpreted. I think in heaven, we'll finally get this predestination/free will thing figured out. I'm just glad I'm saved, and I hope to bring as many with me as possible, through witnessing and prayer!!

Rhonda

[pokemaughan]

Thank you for all of your words of encouragement to me in different posts here. My prayer is that I have interpreted the Scriptures correctly, yet I don't see how else they can be interpreted. I think in heaven, we'll finally get this predestination/free will thing figured out. I'm just glad I'm saved, and I hope to bring as many with me as possible, through witnessing and prayer!!

Rhonda

I think I'm seeing a bit of Jesus shining in your attitude towards the issue

I think we can all take something from your position. Definitely.

[Albert Finch]

Rhonda Lou

You may have gotten the wrong idea about my post. My post in no way reflects scripture (except for the Mathew scripture at the end). The purpose of the post was to point out the pervasive effect of Calvinism on the Evangelical church --ie. its attitude, teachings, beliefs and the fruit it bears.

It is no wonder many in the Church today believes it needs reformation.

Albert Finch

www.thekeys2kingdom.com

Edited August 2, 2009 by Albert Finch

[Rhonda Lou]

I think I'm seeing a bit of Jesus shining in your attitude towards the issue

I think we can all take something from your position. Definitely.

I'm going to try this again; I think I botched something when I tried to add reply. Please forgive me if this comes through twice. One of my life's verses is: Let you light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16) Before I was saved, I resented that people were to see MY good works, and credit GOD with them -- I'm the one who did them. Truth be known, my soul (flesh) still has trouble with that -- I'm too independent. BUT, my spirit, in concert with GOD'S Spirit is always overjoyed when people don't see me, but see God instead. When you wrote "I think I'm seeing a bit of Jesus shining in your attitude towards the issue" -- it was such a comforting confirmation to me that I spoke with GOD'S power and not my own. Thank you.

Rhonda

[Rhonda Lou]

Rhonda Lou

You may have gotten the wrong idea about my post. My post in no way reflects scripture (except for the Mathew scripture at the end). The purpose of the post was to point out the pervasive effect of Calvinism on the Evangelical church --ie. its attitude, teachings, beliefs and the fruit it bears.

It is no wonder many in the Church today believes it needs reformation.

Albert Finch

www.thekeys2kingdom.com

Mr. Finch,

I understood what you were trying to say. In one sence, I despise to term "Calvinistic doctrine" because it is as if Calvin came up with this on his own. I believed in predestination long before I heard of Calvin or knew that this was a "doctrine" -- I had read all of the verses I quoted about predestination first, and I could not interpret them to mean anything other than that God predestinates people. Then I heard "Calvin" and "Armenian" and "free Will Baptist Church" and so on. I saw that people choosing sides would discount verses on the opposing side-- as if they weren't there, or did not mean what they said. This criteria for Biblical interpretation is not used in other passages, only when it comes to controversial topics where people choose sides do they ignore passages which disagree with their views. I am in NO WAY saying that YOU do this, but I have seen it done by others time and time again. The fact is that all of the verses of both sides are in the Bible, so the true seeker of Biblecal truth attempts to reconcile them. Many reconcile them by stating that God only acts on foreknowledge -- He knows what we are going to do, and acts accordingly. This makes man sovereign over God, and I don't see that in the Bible. Also, the Bible makes it clear that God rhooses people not based on any qualifications other than that He chooses them. Israel was small in numbers. Jacob and Esau were not even born. And so on and so on. Others say that no free will is involved. However, to now bring "Calvin" and other "Calvinistic leading teachers" into view, not even many of them say that. Of John 3:16, John Calvin writes:

Two points are distinctly statud to us; namely, that FAITH IN CHRIST BRINGS LIFE TO ALL, AND THAT CHRIST BROUGHT LIFE, BECAUSE THE FATHER LOVES THE HUMAN RACE AND WISHES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT PERISH. {In John 3:16 the evangelist| has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term world, which he formerly used, for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet He shows Himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when He invites all without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than the entrance into life." John Calvin goes on to say, "Let us remember, on the other hand, that while He is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek Him by faith." I quoted this from John MacArthur's book, "The Love of God", copywrited in 1996, and he got the quote from, "John Calvin, commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark and Luke," William Pringle, trans. (Grand Rapids Baker, 1979 reprint), 123)"

Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon and Mathew Henry were also "Calvinists" and yet they are known for their evangelism efforts. John MacArthur wrote "The Gospel According to jesus" as an evangelistic effort. I've heard John Piper, considered one of the fathers of the new "Calvinistic movement" state that God's means for ensuring salvation is that the person must receive Christ. I saw RC Sproul in person. Most of his messages dwell on predestination, but when I saw him in person, he said that when he went to the seminary, his teacher asked: "If God chooses people for salvation, why do we need to go out and preach the gospel at all? I mean the ones who are choses will be chosen whether we preach the gospel or not." He raised his hand and said, "I don't know if this is right, but Jesus DID say, "Go into the world and make discisples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them..." (Matthew 28:19). The professor said, "Exactly, we go because Jesus told us to go."

Calvin, the one who apparently dreamed up this "doctrine" was all for evangelism because ultimately, it is when we receive Christ that we are saved, and faith comoth by hearing. So, what I meant was that true Calvinism is not the problem. I believe those you are referencing are known as "hyper-Calvinists" -- those who go much farther than Calvin himself ever did, and DEFINITELY, who miss the whole point of the Scriptures.

I shared the Scriptures mainly because, to me, only the word of God counts -- not what anybody else says, though I also strongly believe that one of the spiritual gifts is teaching, and so some are gifted at teaching the truth of Scriptures. Like the Bereans, though, I do have a tendency to test what they say against the Scriptures every day to see if it is true (Acts 17:11).

[pokemaughan]

http://www.revkevindeyoung.com/2009/08/mon...g-humor_24.html

A Calvinist witnessing versus an Armenian witnessing.

[Rhonda Lou]

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=...aSwk&ref=nf

A Calvinist witnessing versus an Armenian witnessing.

When I clicked on the link in your post, I got my own home page. That's not what you had in mind, is it?

Rhonda

[Miss Elly]

[quote name='Bro David

[pokemaughan]

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=...aSwk&ref=nf

A Calvinist witnessing versus an Armenian witnessing.

When I clicked on the link in your post, I got my own home page. That's not what you had in mind, is it?

Rhonda

Oops.

http://www.revkevindeyoung.com/2009/08/mon...g-humor_24.html

[kross]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

I am not going to read all of the posts of this thread. So if I am being redundant in answerring these questions, I am sorry.

1st Romans 9:18-23 (I think) spells out GOD's motives for creation very nicely. As far as the love aspect of GOD choosing to save some and not others. Let us assume that GOD, looking through time and space, sees that no-one would seek HIM, not even one. So HE determines to save some by an act of HIS grace. HE touches some with a very special love that is so wonderful, it turns HIS enemies into HIS children. HE adopts them and saves them and, As it is written in Romans 8;29-31 Those HE decided to have a relationship with (foreknew) HE predestined. These HE called, justified and glorified.

Where is the love? Even though it was in every man to spit on HIM, crucify HIS SON, and hate HE with an unreasonable hatred, HE still chooses to save some. Which so magnifies HIS love and grace as to make it unfathomable.

As far as John 3:16 (one of the most twisted and tortured scriptures in the Bible) It is a part of a teaching from JESUS in which HE explains that GOD sent HIS son into the world to save the world. JESUS then goes on to say that everyone who would believe in HIM would be saved. This is a statement of fact. It says that anyone who would come to JESUS would be saved. BUT.......

It is the beginning of a teaching from the mouth of JESUS in which HE continues by explaining that men will not come. This doesn't mean "some men will not come" it means men period. The hearts of men, all men, are decitfully wicked. None seeks after GOD, no not one. Paul expounds upon this in the first couple chapters of Romans as well.

From this point, the place where JESUS himself states that men will not come to the light because their deeds are dark, JESUS then explains that those who do come do so because their deeds are of GOD, in GOD, wrought by GOD. John 3:16 is a part of a teaching that is from JESUS that states that no-one comes to the FATHER in their own effort, because they will not put forth the effort.

So, it could be stated that JESUS died for "all who would come" only if it is added that none would come and that the only ones who do come are those whom Paul writes of in Romans 8; 28-31 and whom JESUS himself states "All that the FATHER has given ME will come to me, and of them I will loose none for this is the will of MY FATHER that I raise them up in the last day" and that those who come are those to whom it is "granted by THE FATHER" that they may come.

HIS peace to you

Love y'all