Calvin vs. Arminius

[kross]

Kross i do believe that no man repents without the aid of the Holy Spirit, but you havnt answered the question. "If man is unable to repent as Calvinism states then God is not just to require it."

We do not have to fear a lightening bolt for refuting wrong beliefs that accuse God of tyranny. God is totally just but not because He says so.

The gospel is perfectly suited to mans needs and does not abuse our faculties of reason when veiwed correctly.

Hi Pokemaughan/Rhond Lou, I totally believe in predestination as it is taught in scripture but i disagree with the Calvinist

understanding which is IMO equal to fatalism.

Rhonda its not scripture vs reason, its scripture correctly understood does not violate correct reasoning, scripture= correct reasoning. "All truth is true to scripture, true to life and true to correct reasoning". Charles Finney

Man has all he needs to repent and obey God as God has already made available the influence of the Holy Spirit, but man is unwilling to repent and free will allows him to reject the truth and influence of the Holy Spirit.

The fall did not alter mans ability to choose God, and man does not need any new faculties. God only applies moral influence and no physical changes are needed. A father does not get heart obedience by altering his childrens physical makeup, but by influencing them through verbal and where necessary physical persuassion.

I have no personal malice towards Calvinist but IMO Calvinism is a great stumbling block to revival and needs refuting where possible.

JESUS stated that HE did not come into the world to condemn the world, but that through HIM the world might be saved. Then HE state that the condemnation is that men love darkness and will not come to the light.

You hold to the idea that men can or will come to the light. Either that or you hold to the idea that GOD is not omnipotent, but just impotent.

THe truth is, there is not one sinner who is able to repent and be saved. Yet, the scriptures say it must be so. Why? Because GOD is Holy. This is HIS nature. HE will not live in the presence of sinful men, or will not allow them to live with HIM. HE cannot. Not because of some law of lack of power, but because HE is Holy.

Yes, GOD demands perfect holiness for sinful men who can not be holy. HE demands repentance from sinful men who cannot repent because it not in their nature to repent. When they do not repent, HE judges them for their deeds. This is what the Bible says.

We all by nature were children of wrath just as those who currently are lost, until GOD made us to sit in high places in CHRIST JESUS.

Somewhere you have grabbed onto a belief or teaching that states that men will come to the light, or that GOD does nothing special to save anyone. HE treats each sinner exactly the same and the ones who come, come, the ones who don't, don't. HE did what HE felt HE wanted to do and if noone gets saved, OH WELL, HE tried. OR you have grabbed onto a teaching that says GOD is trying as hard as HE can to save everyone, but HE just can't seem to find a way to get it done.

You say what I believe makes GOD a tyrant. That if GOD chooses to hold men accountable for what they have done, even though the very nature of a fallen man is to sin, makes GOD a tyrant. For how can HE hold man accountable for doing what is his nature to do? In your view, if GOD just doesn't do enough to change that nature so a person will choose JESUS, HE is still off the hook. Somehow doing something means HE is not a tyrant. Even if HE falls short of doing what is truly needed. One plants, another waters, but GOD gives the increase. So, if one plants and another waters, but GOD gives no increase, then GOD is not a tyrant? Why? because HE gave people a choice? Because they did not choose? Becaue they did not do something that is outside their nature to do?

You know, Paul asked and answerred this very question, "Why does HE still find fault if none have resisted HIS will?" Paul's answer is that the creator has the righ to make one vessel for dishonor and one for honor. IN the very midst of teaching predestination Paul asks the question, "Who are you to reply against GOD?"

IS GOD a tyrant for making one vessel for honor and one for dishonor? For making HIS creation the way HE chose to make it?

I showed you very clearly that no sinner is able to be get saved. No sinner ever comes to GOD. There are none righteous, none that seeks after GOD. If that doesn't answer your question/statement it is because you have chosen to believe something else. Which is fine.

And just for the record, every great revival has centered around calvinist teachings. How can a teaching that gives GOD all the glory for the saving of souls not garner HIS favor. YOur statement shows how much distance there is between the points of thought. One side believes that salvation is of the LORD, and doesn't require pleasing the hearer. The other side wants to tell the hearer what sounds good to them, believing that this is the way to save their souls.

HIS peace

[Rhonda Lou]

IMO Calvinism is Fatalistic and this is one of the false gods spoken of in Isaiah 65:11, Gad = luck and Meni = fate.

To say a sinner is unable to repent but God will send them to eternal torment for not being chosen is the same as accusing God of infinite tyranny.

Sinners are able to repent, but they rebelliously choose not to despite the Holy Spirit influence. Those that do repent are those who aided by the Holy Spirits change their supreme preference of serving themselves to that of serving God. This is true salvation and a mental accent to Gods sovereignty while persisting in rebellion is not.

With all due respect, a belief in predestination is not fatalistic. We do not know who is chosen and who is not chosen, so my default when I see a person is to believe that the person might be among the chosen -- even if every indication for the present is the opposite of that. Paul persecuted the church. We are all dead in our sins before salvation. Nobody seeks God, and all run away from him, so is it any wonder that any person I see who disavows God is running away from Him? Yet every single person God saves began by running away from Him, so there is always hope.

Secondly, I do agree that everybody pits one Scritpure against another when it comes to this issue, and most of this is done on the basis of emotion. Unfortunately, the sad truth for human reason is that all Scriptures on both sides are in the Bible. God DOES predetermine: "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15-24) and "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believed in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [/b](John 1:12-13)

However, did you notice that even though salvation is clearly stated as NOT being the will of man but ONLY the "WILL OF GOD" also stated just prior to that is to those "as RECEIVED HIM" -- those who "BELIEVED IN HIS NAME." In the middle of the greatest defense of predestination in the New Testament (Romans 8:29-30; and capters 911), we find this: "But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,' that is, the word of faith which we preach), that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved...so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:8-9; 17)

This means there is free will.

Much has been made about logic vs. Scriptures. People who see both state that the Scriptures mean that God simply knew who was saved, making free will the predominate factor. I disagree with this assessment because the word "foreknowledge" in the Bible means "foreordained" The same Greek word is used in 1 Peter 1:2: "elect by the foreknowledge of God" that is used in 1 Peter 1:20: "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world." That is the same Greek word used in Romans 8:29: "For those He foreknew, these He also predestined". As the verses I quoted above from Exodus 33:19b and John 1:12-13 indicate, God chooses, we don't. But John 1:12 and $omans 10:8-9, clearly state that free will is involved, not in determining who will be saved, but in making the salvation official from our viewpoint -- as the final step of salvation. That's how I see it. Scripturally, when faced with the dilemma and ramifications of predestination, we are told: "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will he thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like you?" (Romans 9:20)

I've heard many say here that Scripture is all wel and good, but human reason is more important, which is the reason for this thread. God basically says, "I am who I am, my thoughts are higher than you thoughts..." (Exodus 3:14; Isaiah 55:8-9) So, if it is greater than we can comprehend (like how the Trinity works or how Jesus can be both God and man), but God, who never lies, is the one who says it, should we not just believe that both predestination and free will are there? Does faith not include trusting God even if we don't understand it? If we did understand it, would it require much faith?

Those who believe that the idea of predestination leaves God being tyrannical should remember that Scripture also says that God is love (1 John 4:7-8) and that everything He does is for our good (Romans 8:28).

I'm sorry, I just feel a need to defend God's word since I've heard people downplay God's actual word in favor of human reason. God's word goes by God's reason, not human reason, and since He knows everything and we don't -- but He wants only our good -- I'm just going to trust Him on this one.

Rhonda

I would agree with what you have ststed if you had written that clearly "the will is involved" instead of "free will is involved" The one aspect of it all is whether the will is truely free, and when is the will truely free.

If "faith comes by hearing" as the scripture you quoted states, and faith is a gift from GOD, then a response to faith is only a natural reaction to having been given the gift. In that sense, it is a "free will" reponse. But, it is a free will respones that is in line with GOD's soveriegn will towards that person in giving that person the gift of faith by which he can cry out Abba Father.

I am glad I read your statement and that I just wrote this. I think I have just acquired a more clear understanding.

HIS grace and peace to you

Kross, I'm nearly out of time, but I would like to answer your question with a very short answer, and get back to it later (I'm incapable of REALLY short!!). Let me put it this way. I agree that before God draws us we have NO free will in the matter of salvation. Our natural state is to deny God, run away from God, be dead in our sins -- and dead people need life. Where "free" will enters in is AFTER God begins to draw us -- after we have some knowledge of Him, and the Holy Spirit gives us a rudimentary understanding which He builds on. Adam and Eve had SEEN God before being told not to eat of the tree of good and evil (which gave them a choice.) The Israelites SAW God before He told them to choose life or death. People SAW Jesus before told to believe in Him. Believers have a choice between their new creation and the old flesh container -- but they have SEEN God. Before anybody is drawn to Chrost, there is no choice or "free will". After being drawn, there is, so I DO agree with you. The balance is that God DOES eventually give us a choice, though we are born OF God and OF HIS will. In my own mind, I separate that between heaven's perspective and our human perspective, but that's in MY mind, not in the word of God. The predestination is real, but the choice (like you I HATE the word "free" will, but it is the one everybody understands) is also real -- it's just not first. I hope that clears it up. If not, ask away, and I will try to explain it better, or at least more scripturally -- Scriptures mean a LOT to me!!

Thanks for your kind words.

Rhonda

I do not think I have any real question to what you have said. But...

Do you believe that once GOD chooses to draw a person to JESUS that this person will have resistance to that draw? In other words, when one of GOD's chosen is touched by the HOLY SPIRIT and given the gift of faith, is it possible for that person to not get saved as a result of a choice of their will?

I believe that the nature of a person touched by GOD is changed. The new nature of that person is to be drawn to GOD. Nothing acts against it's own nature unless acted upon by an outside force. Since GOD is the strongest outside force, HIS soveriegn act of changing the nature of a person will be the ultimate determinating factor in the salvation of that person.

An act of the will is necessary, but the will is soveriegnly changed by the touch of love and the revelation of the true nature of GOD as love to those whom HE has predestinated to feel that touch.

WOuld you say we are on the same page here?

HIS peace

I'm sorry that I did not get this notification yesterday -- and I was looking for it. Yes, I believe that God is sovereign and that those He chooses and draws will say yes. I'm just saying that according to Romans 10:17, that does not exempt us from preaching the gospel, so that we "see" God, and even though He's doing the drawing, the Bible makes it clear that we must say "yes" based on our knowledge.

I can't explain it biblically, I just believe that the Bible is clear that God directs and we say yes, and even though from His perspective we WILL say yes, from our perspective we choose to say "yes" -- and that choice is not an illusion. I believe that God loves us so much that He makes absolutely, totally sure that by the time we are asked, or given the invitation, we will say "yes" and that He does this because He knows that, left to our own devices, we would never say "yes." I'm grateful for His work in my life because only by Him was I saved: by grace, through faith. But the Bible makes it clear that we must say "yes". I believe that every person who is saved is grateful for God's doing it, not feeling like choice is an illusion. So, I believe that what happens in the spiritual realm is predestination, and it still is predestination on earth, but physical laws allow for free will. All I know is that the Bible teaches both predestination and choice -- but it does NOT teach that God "knows" and chooses based on "knowledge" -- He chooses based on whom He chooses. He foreordains and acts to ensure we will say "yes" when the time is right -- but we still choose to say yes. However it works, that is what the Bible teaches. Does that answer your question?

Rhonda

[Rhonda Lou]

Kross i do believe that no man repents without the aid of the Holy Spirit, but you havnt answered the question. "If man is unable to repent as Calvinism states then God is not just to require it."

We do not have to fear a lightening bolt for refuting wrong beliefs that accuse God of tyranny. God is totally just but not because He says so.

The gospel is perfectly suited to mans needs and does not abuse our faculties of reason when veiwed correctly.

Hi Pokemaughan/Rhond Lou, I totally believe in predestination as it is taught in scripture but i disagree with the Calvinist

understanding which is IMO equal to fatalism.

Rhonda its not scripture vs reason, its scripture correctly understood does not violate correct reasoning, scripture= correct reasoning. "All truth is true to scripture, true to life and true to correct reasoning". Charles Finney

Man has all he needs to repent and obey God as God has already made available the influence of the Holy Spirit, but man is unwilling to repent and free will allows him to reject the truth and influence of the Holy Spirit.

The fall did not alter mans ability to choose God, and man does not need any new faculties. God only applies moral influence and no physical changes are needed. A father does not get heart obedience by altering his childrens physical makeup, but by influencing them through verbal and where necessary physical persuassion.

I have no personal malice towards Calvinist but IMO Calvinism is a great stumbling block to revival and needs refuting where possible.

For what it is worth, I'm not a Calvinist. Nor am I Arminian. I see people get hung up on what the early church taught or what leaders in that church taught. I was raised in a denomination which does not believe in the Rapture, yet when I read the Scriptures, I became a believer. I never heard of Darby, and won't debate that now, because that is not what this thread is about, but the point is that I follow no man, I follow Scriptures. As men teach Scriptures, I look them up, pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and believe accordingly. And I did not learn this from Calvin -- I believed it long before I ever even heard of Calvin because it was written in Scriptures long before He came to earth.

Secondly, I do not discount reason. But my "reasoning" tells me that God's word is truth and has no contradictions in it. I must believe what it says. There are things in the Bible which I do not understand -- like how Jesus can be both 100% God and 100% man, but I accept it because the Bible clearly teaches it. I believe it -- though it is beyond my understanding -- it is not beyond God's understanding, only His thoughts are higher than my thoughts.

You mention that we are capable of repentance, and I agree with that once we are told about Christ, only it is not simply natural because the Bible says: "When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also GRANTED to the Gentiles repentance to ife." (Acts 11:18) It says, "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. and as many (not all) as had been APPOINTED to eterlan life believed. (Acts 13:48) This clearly says that they believed because they had been appointed -- not appointed because they believe. That is what the text says. 2 Timothy 2:25 says that we are to speak humbly to unbelievers, and gently to them "if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth." "If God will grant them repentance" means there is some He doesn't grant repentance to, just as those who believed were the ones who were appointed. I don't see how these passages can say anything except that..

We also cannot choose God because the Bible clearly says in Romans 3:10-11, "As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God." Jesus said, "And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19) Colossians 2:14 clearly says, "And you, being DEAD in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, HE HAS MADE ALIVE..." (Colossians 2:13a) The Bible clearly says, "But the natural man does NOT receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:144)

Yet, the Bible speaks of free will, and often the one speaking of free will or choice is the same one who taught predestination.

John, who said,

[pokemaughan]

All I see in those Scriptures is the sovereignty of God. No one can resist His will, I believe...

[Rhonda Lou]

All I see in those Scriptures is the sovereignty of God. No one can resist His will, I believe...

I agree with you -- those who are chosen and drawn by God cannot resist His will. All I'm saying is that God still calls us to actually say "Yes" to it.

Let me ask you this: On Worthy Boards or elsewhere, when you speak to unbelievers, do you try to convince them to believe, even believing in predestination? Do you pray for their salvation? If we were to not try to convince others, or if we were to assume that God has already made His choice so that we don't have to do anything, we would be as fatalistic as those who don't believe in "Calvinism" say we are. But, when we pray that God draws them, when we "contend for the faith" hoping they will believe, are we not conceding a choice? I agree with you that in heaven the decidsion has already been made, and I agree that God works on earth to bring the decision to the proper conclusion -- in His own timing and way, and that when the right time comes, the person will still say yes. But the Bible does make it clear that those who believe have life, and those who don't, don't -- so we are called to believe, even if that faith is given to us by God (as I believe it was), we are still called to have it. It is a strange paradox for me that we are called to choose what God has already given us, ordained for us, worked in our lives to ensure we will do, and actually does for us, but that is the balance in Scripture: God draws and calls His chosen ones, and does everything to get them to say "yes', but that they must still say "yes." All of those who wrote the Scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit believed that God draws and calls His chosen ones, yet they all called, and cajoled, and pled and weeped at those who did not choose to believe and did everything in their power, and in God's power through them, to get people to believe. Paul, who wrote Romans 9-11, while at the church of Ephesus, said, "You know, from the first day that I cam to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trial which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem; not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. But none of these things move me, nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:18b-24).

Paul gave everything he had testifying to the gospel, as did the other disciples. They all believed that God had decided who was chosen, and was drawing them -- but it did not stop them from contending, hoping and praying. Why was Paul willing to suffer so much/ Why was he so heartfelt in wanting others to believe? I believe that it was because, even though it was already decided in heaven, he knew that we must still say "yes" and he wanted to preach so that people would say "yes." Saying "yes" is a choice, even though God is sovereign over that choice. God does NOT determin who is saved based on our choice -- He predetermines that and acts on His decision to bring us to the point of saying yes, but He wants those who have said yes to tell everybody the gospel so that when judgment comes men are without excuse. He's provided creation, He has provided consciences, He has provided witnesses, yet people still reject Him. The ones left in their sins will reject Him, because He has not empowered them to believe. But we do not know who He has empowered, and whom He hasn't and when He will empower the chosen, so we are called to be the witnesses so that all of the chosen will say "yes". And even those God has not empowered, He still loves and cares for on earth (Matthew 5:48; Luke 6:35; Acts 14:14-17, particularly verse 17).

I know that doesn't make logical sense to us, but it DOES make logical sense to God, who loves all, and works for the good of those who love Him. Rather than choosing sides and trying to figure it out with human logic, I believe God calls us to trust HIS logic, and know that He is good. Yes God chose us, yes He will ensure we say "yes" with the time is right, yes we must say "yes" - and saying "yes" indicates choice.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Rhonda Lou

[kross]

I'm sorry that I did not get this notification yesterday -- and I was looking for it. Yes, I believe that God is sovereign and that those He chooses and draws will say yes. I'm just saying that according to Romans 10:17, that does not exempt us from preaching the gospel, so that we "see" God, and even though He's doing the drawing, the Bible makes it clear that we must say "yes" based on our knowledge.

I can't explain it biblically, I just believe that the Bible is clear that God directs and we say yes, and even though from His perspective we WILL say yes, from our perspective we choose to say "yes" -- and that choice is not an illusion. I believe that God loves us so much that He makes absolutely, totally sure that by the time we are asked, or given the invitation, we will say "yes" and that He does this because He knows that, left to our own devices, we would never say "yes." I'm grateful for His work in my life because only by Him was I saved: by grace, through faith. But the Bible makes it clear that we must say "yes". I believe that every person who is saved is grateful for God's doing it, not feeling like choice is an illusion. So, I believe that what happens in the spiritual realm is predestination, and it still is predestination on earth, but physical laws allow for free will. All I know is that the Bible teaches both predestination and choice -- but it does NOT teach that God "knows" and chooses based on "knowledge" -- He chooses based on whom He chooses. He foreordains and acts to ensure we will say "yes" when the time is right -- but we still choose to say yes. However it works, that is what the Bible teaches. Does that answer your question?

Rhonda

I agree that they are choices and they must be made. I think we believe everything on this subject the same. I, also, gleaned my understanding from the scriptures long before I heard of Calvin or Spurgion or Pink. I was very glad that I discovered the great theologians who had read and studied the scriptures and came to the same conclusions I had. Confirmation is a nice thing.

[pokemaughan]

I agree with you -- those who are chosen and drawn by God cannot resist His will. All I'm saying is that God still calls us to actually say "Yes" to it.

Let me ask you this: On Worthy Boards or elsewhere, when you speak to unbelievers, do you try to convince them to believe, even believing in predestination? Do you pray for their salvation? If we were to not try to convince others, or if we were to assume that God has already made His choice so that we don't have to do anything, we would be as fatalistic as those who don't believe in "Calvinism" say we are. But, when we pray that God draws them, when we "contend for the faith" hoping they will believe, are we not conceding a choice? I agree with you that in heaven the decidsion has already been made, and I agree that God works on earth to bring the decision to the proper conclusion -- in His own timing and way, and that when the right time comes, the person will still say yes. But the Bible does make it clear that those who believe have life, and those who don't, don't -- so we are called to believe, even if that faith is given to us by God (as I believe it was), we are still called to have it. It is a strange paradox for me that we are called to choose what God has already given us, ordained for us, worked in our lives to ensure we will do, and actually does for us, but that is the balance in Scripture: God draws and calls His chosen ones, and does everything to get them to say "yes', but that they must still say "yes." All of those who wrote the Scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit believed that God draws and calls His chosen ones, yet they all called, and cajoled, and pled and weeped at those who did not choose to believe and did everything in their power, and in God's power through them, to get people to believe. Paul, who wrote Romans 9-11, while at the church of Ephesus, said, "You know, from the first day that I cam to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trial which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem; not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. But none of these things move me, nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:18b-24).

Paul gave everything he had testifying to the gospel, as did the other disciples. They all believed that God had decided who was chosen, and was drawing them -- but it did not stop them from contending, hoping and praying. Why was Paul willing to suffer so much/ Why was he so heartfelt in wanting others to believe? I believe that it was because, even though it was already decided in heaven, he knew that we must still say "yes" and he wanted to preach so that people would say "yes." Saying "yes" is a choice, even though God is sovereign over that choice. God does NOT determin who is saved based on our choice -- He predetermines that and acts on His decision to bring us to the point of saying yes, but He wants those who have said yes to tell everybody the gospel so that when judgment comes men are without excuse. He's provided creation, He has provided consciences, He has provided witnesses, yet people still reject Him. The ones left in their sins will reject Him, because He has not empowered them to believe. But we do not know who He has empowered, and whom He hasn't and when He will empower the chosen, so we are called to be the witnesses so that all of the chosen will say "yes". And even those God has not empowered, He still loves and cares for on earth (Matthew 5:48; Luke 6:35; Acts 14:14-17, particularly verse 17).

I know that doesn't make logical sense to us, but it DOES make logical sense to God, who loves all, and works for the good of those who love Him. Rather than choosing sides and trying to figure it out with human logic, I believe God calls us to trust HIS logic, and know that He is good. Yes God chose us, yes He will ensure we say "yes" with the time is right, yes we must say "yes" - and saying "yes" indicates choice.

I'm reminded of a passage in Acts.

And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, "Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people."

(Acts 18:9-10 ESV)

God has already chosen people, and it's our job to find those people and plant that seed or water another one's seed. As far as praying for the lost goes, I believe prayer in and of itself is another method to bring God glory by showing your total reliance on Him. I recognize my need for Him, and I recognize His pleasure in my prayer.

From what I can tell, you make a better case for Calvinism more than anything else. You seem to grasp the total sovereignty of God and the total depravity of man very well. The only part I would be careful on is the fact God chose me before the beginning of time, put the Spirit in me and gave me faith so I could believe. There was no choice I made in my own right. God determined me to "make" that choice.

But yes, there are many supposed 'paradoxes' in theology. We go, "What???" and God goes, "Hah, yep."

Regardless, however, these things are not issues to die on. They both preach the same Jesus regardless, though some finer points may differ.

[Rhonda Lou]

I'm sorry that I did not get this notification yesterday -- and I was looking for it. Yes, I believe that God is sovereign and that those He chooses and draws will say yes. I'm just saying that according to Romans 10:17, that does not exempt us from preaching the gospel, so that we "see" God, and even though He's doing the drawing, the Bible makes it clear that we must say "yes" based on our knowledge.

I can't explain it biblically, I just believe that the Bible is clear that God directs and we say yes, and even though from His perspective we WILL say yes, from our perspective we choose to say "yes" -- and that choice is not an illusion. I believe that God loves us so much that He makes absolutely, totally sure that by the time we are asked, or given the invitation, we will say "yes" and that He does this because He knows that, left to our own devices, we would never say "yes." I'm grateful for His work in my life because only by Him was I saved: by grace, through faith. But the Bible makes it clear that we must say "yes". I believe that every person who is saved is grateful for God's doing it, not feeling like choice is an illusion. So, I believe that what happens in the spiritual realm is predestination, and it still is predestination on earth, but physical laws allow for free will. All I know is that the Bible teaches both predestination and choice -- but it does NOT teach that God "knows" and chooses based on "knowledge" -- He chooses based on whom He chooses. He foreordains and acts to ensure we will say "yes" when the time is right -- but we still choose to say yes. However it works, that is what the Bible teaches. Does that answer your question?

Rhonda

I agree that they are choices and they must be made. I think we believe everything on this subject the same. I, also, gleaned my understanding from the scriptures long before I heard of Calvin or Spurgion or Pink. I was very glad that I discovered the great theologians who had read and studied the scriptures and came to the same conclusions I had. Confirmation is a nice thing.

I'm glad that I answered your question -- yes, I believe that we are on the same page.

[JCISGD]

If no one can resist Gods will then none would have free will nor would any go to hell, "for God is not willing that any should perish"

Kross the greatest revivalist America has seen is Charles Finney who God used to bring unparralled revival everywhere he preached including the U.K. Also the famous Welsh revival years after his death, has been attributed primarily after God, to 80,000 tracts written by Finney being distributed. Wisdom is known by her children and although Jonathon Edwards and others also saw great revial, Finneys rejection of much of Calvinism gave room for the Holy Spirit to use truth to bring strong conviction and usher in revival.

Many have stated that God used Finney to change the course of American history, yet most Americans are unaware of this. Please dont accuse me of idolising a man, I only speak of Finney to get to the truth by way of researching the doctrines taught and the fruit thereof, and to show your statement that all the great revivals came from Calvinist teaching to be wrong.

Charles and John Wesley were also great revivalist who rejected much of Calvinism.

I am not saying that all of Calvinism is wrong only that where followed in reality leads mostly to fatalism. It is possible of course to believe something but not actually follow it in practice, therefore good can follow from error.

[EricH]

If no one can resist Gods will then none would have free will nor would any go to hell, "for God is not willing that any should perish"

Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that God is not willing that any should perish. They also agree that some do. They also agree that there is obviously somthing more important to God than not all perisihing (other wise all would not). Where they disagree is what that something is