Calvin vs. Arminius

[larryt]

Larry, how do you understand the verses in scripture that say:

Heb 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

If God's grace is irresistible as Calvinist say, and only the elect will "hear" from God, who are these that can harden their hearts?

Hi saved,

Have you read much in this thread? I have mentioned several times that I am not a Calvinist though I believe a lot of what he taught is true. I have mentioned several times that I believe that Invincible is a much more accurate understanding of the grace doctrine. Even the elect resist the grace of God before submitting to God.

The warning to "harden not your heart" is mentioned 4 times. Keep in mind who this is written to. I see this as a warning to believers. Believers can harden their heart and not loose salvation but can provoke God to chastise them.

Also it says that Pharoah hardened his heart but it also says God hardened his heart. It also says God caused David to nunber the people.

2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

This shows the Sovereignty of God.

Also brother, how do you see the warnings of Hebrews 6? Let me preface this by saying, I am not a Calvinist, but I do believe in eternal security, I do believe in Biblical election. I reject any notion that God just leaves some men to their doom as scripture does not teach this. Getting back to Hebrews 6, this speaks of an individual who is actually made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, they tasted the word of God and have experienced the powers of the world to come, yet they fall away or Apostatize. The Elect can never perish, or fall away, I think we can both agree on that, so who are these people the Holy Spirit is referring to? These who have been "enlightened", yet still shrink back into unbelief.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The sense of Heb. 6 is not stating a warning but in reality a reasurance. I am currious which version you use. The KJ say If they shall fall away. Which poses a hypothetical question for the purpose of making the point that Christ only died once. In verse 9 the writer gets back on tract reassuring his hearers that this is not the case with them.

(On a side note: if you are using a version that is copyrighted you need to mention the version or you could be in violation of copyright laws.)

Seems to me that the Calvinist doctrine that God does not enlighten the unsaved(those who will never believe) is in direct contrast to Holy scripture. God has never just left a man or woman to their doom, he gives them his righteous demands, he gives them light, which is why they will stand guilty before him.

God said because they refused to believe is the reason he will damn them, not because he made them that way, or because he would not enlighten them. On the contrary, he said the very reason he would harden them is because they would...not...receive...his ...truth.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

And this gets into the issue of total depravity. Where does it say God is obligated to save anybody?

Now I will ask you a question. Since you answered a post that was a dicussion with someone else how do you understand the verses I mentioned.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And how does that fit with John 6 & 10

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

[allofgrace]

2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

This shows the Sovereignty of God.

If we look at 1 Chron 21:1 all can see that this is an incident like in Job 1 when God allowed Satan to tempt Job, but in this case He allowed Satan to tempt David even though David knew he should not number the people as Joab tried to warn him.

1 Chron 21:14a Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it.” 3 And Joab answered, “May the Lord make His people a hundred times more than they are. But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord’s servants? Why then does my lord require this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt in Israel?” 4 Nevertheless the king’s word prevailed against Joab.

[GoldenEagle]

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

Rom. 10:9-13 (NKJV)

⁹ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. ¹⁰ For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ¹¹ For the Scripture says,“Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”^{[f] 12} For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. ¹³ For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

[saved34]

The warning to "harden not your heart" is mentioned 4 times. Keep in mind who this is written to. I see this as a warning to believers. Believers can harden their heart and not loose salvation but can provoke God to chastise them.

I have to respectfully disagree, Larry. The warning of "harden not your heart" is to all who hear the word of God. Hebrews 4 goes into detail and explains that ALL heard the words of God, but it only benefited those who excercised faith in those words. Some entered into God's rest, where others did not. The ones who did not are clearly those who hardened their hearts to God's righteous demands.

Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest,

Also it says that Pharoah hardened his heart but it also says God hardened his heart. It also says God caused David to nunber the people.

I think you are on to the great mystery of God's sovereign will, and man's responsibility to God and man's own will. There is a sort of synergy in the process as scripture clearly says Pharoah hardened his own heart, yet God hardened it as well. God did not tempt Pharoah with evil, but gave him holy, and righteous demands which hardened an already wicked heart. Calvinism would teach that God just haphazardly chose Pharoah as an innocent man, then hardened him so he could damn him. No such thing is taught in scripture.

The sense of Heb. 6 is not stating a warning but in reality a reasurance

Again, I have to respectfully disagree. Hebrews is indeed the book of warning to those who at that time were making a profession of the Christian faith, yet many of them turned back when heavy persecution came and many went back to animal sacrifices. This is why the author of Hebrews took great pains to explain that in Christ we have a better Covenant, a better sacrifice, and much surer and better promises.

I am currious which version you use. The KJ say If they shall fall away. Which poses a hypothetical question for the purpose of making the point that Christ only died once

I am using the NASB, which is one of the best versions on the market, and is most likely the most accurate word for word translation on the market. It's so true to the Greek source, that many say it reads too stiff because the editors tried to stay as close to the original wording as possible.

Now as far as you saying Hebrews 6 is merely hypothetical, that can't possibly be. There were real men and women drawing back, they were experiencing all of the things expressed in Hebrews 6:4-6, which is why he admonished the brothers and sisters who did not Apostatized. It's the same warning the Apostle John gave his readers

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The Apostle Peter went as far as to say these people escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of God, and that they turned and denied the Lord who bought them.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

2Pe 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

These are not the Elect, but they clearly have a knowledge of the truth. The Holy Spirit has enlightened them, yet they of their own selves turn back to the vomit from where they were. They still hold to a form of Godliness, but they reject Christ. Calvinism would teach that the unsaved are just left to their own corruption, but the Bible teaches that they "Know the way of righteousness."

Part 2 coming up.

[saved34]

And this gets into the issue of total depravity. Where does it say God is obligated to save anybody?

God charged himself with our salvation before we even fell. Obligated? Our God is a loving God, and he will do right by man. He loved us enough to partake of our humanity for the express purpose of saving us. It is his nature. Remember the statement he gave Jonah concerning those in sin that he wanted Jonah to preach to?

Jon 4:11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"

Brother, the very nature of God is one of compassion and patience for the wicked. Even on those who he knows will NEVER accept him. He allows them to enjoy his sunshine and resources just as he does his own children. Scripture says he endures with much long suffering these vessels of wrath. These men were for all intents and purposes, born to die. Their final destiny is hell fire, yet God endures their insolence with much patience.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

This goes back to the synergy that I talked about in my last post. God's sovereign election, and man's responsibility to God. There was a time and place for all of us to have received God's gift of salvation. For instance, January 1992 was my time, I heard the Gospel at that time, and I believed the Gospel, and God gave me eternal life. That word "ordained" means to set in an orderly fashion. It was the time for all those who did believe on that day to finally come in to the family of God. God's foreknowledge of us does not begin on the day we receive him, he prepared for us long before we even thought of receiving him, it is he who appoints and grants us the

ability to be saved. Interestingly enough, the free will of man is clearly shown just a few verses up. Paul and Barnabas clearly tell the Jews that it is they who reject God, not God rejecting them.

Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

I think this is the thing that both Arminians and Calvinist are missing. God does elect us as his people, but man still has a responsibility to God. Election is never taught as a thing to the exclusion of the unsaved, Predestination is never even mentioned in respects to the unsaved. This is a great mystery that God has never charged man with teaching.

And how does that fit with John 6 & 10

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

To understand these passages you must understand God's overall plan in salvation. Brother, this would be another essay of a post if I answered it in it's fullest. I'll just touch on it and say, Christ was very specific when he spoke those words. First, this is foreign grounds to a gentile at this point. A pre crucified Christ declaring that "No man can come to me unless my Father draw him". At this time, a pre-crucified Christ who told his disciples, "do not go to the gentiles." The passages you quote are distinctly Jewish, as the book of John explains, and the Apostle Paul explains in Romans 9-11. To summarize: God blinded his own people Israel, that the Gentiles could be saved. Only a small remnant "of the lost sheep of Israel" could believe on the Lord as he walked the earth.

God gave the Lord 12 Apostles, and he prayed specifically that he kept each and everyone except Judas. Leading up to his sacrificial death our Lord said "I will draw ALL men to me". Now, the door of salvation is wide open, and man must not harden his heart when the Spirit comes knocking.

I can go indepth with scripture but for the sake of this long post I'll save that response if you ask for it in it's fullness. God bless my brother.

[OneLight]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

[rjp34652]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Nobody reads that far back.

To be honest I've noticed the same sort of thing with other posts. It isn't you. Folks read the current page or the pages of content they follow since their last post and that's it. To add fuel to the fire I don't believe that folks even consider the words they read for more than a second or two, just enough time for a knee jerk response.

Certainly few come to these activities with a desire to learn something new. Opinions abound and the major impetus for participation is to vomit one's thoughts onto the internet. There is little or no reception of scholarly input here. Scripture quoted like holy bullets fired at one's opponent is about as far as it goes.

Have you looked on more popular sites such as the news? CNN is the big one. CNN is more like an electronic spittoon than a place to get accurate or intelligently composed public information. There's also a lot of computerized censoring going on that doesn't help much. But there are way$ around it, if you know what I meen.

It isn't you oneLight. If your posts are ignored, use the event as an opportunity to reiterate your assertion in a slightly different style. Think of it as an exercise in English composition. It certainly isn't an exercise in cerebral digestion by the reader(s).

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[larryt]

Where do you get that in scripture. Where did it say God pricks the heart? What does that mean to say God pricks the heart? Because God convicts the world of sin does not imply that they will believe.

When the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, where does this take place? Is it in the body? Nope, the body does not hold our spirit. The mind? No, because in the mind we can just brush it off as a thought, but the heart is a place where we cannot ignore. God spoke of the intent of the heart in Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

The phrase "prick the heart" is a descriptive phrase describing what is going on, like "stub your toe".

You have not explained what you mean scripturally by "pricks the heart" or where you come up with this idea. Men need to stick with God's Word instead of trying to explain their own ideas to get around some of the paradoxes that cannot be explained by the natural man.

The passage you refer to is not about the spread of the Gospel so much as a condemnation of the world. The sheep have no need of having their heart pricked. Jesus said that they WOULD hear His voice, hear the Spirit, and Will follow Him. Those that are not His sheep won't!

I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16

So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

The idea of predestination without foreknowledge is either the result of taking scripture out of context or not knowing all of what scripture has to say about the subject of predestination. We must take all of scripture into account when we come to an understanding. If we do not, we can easily be led astray with having just partial understanding.

We read about foreknowledge being before predestination in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

What does it mean that God foreknew? Foreknew what? God, being Omniscient and Omnipresence is able to look through time to know who will and who will not choose Him. This means that everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen is in front of Him always. The idea that God chooses whom He will without the person ever having a choice goes against the very reason why Jesus came. The verse that is most popular in the whole world is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If predestination was true without choice, this would not be in scripture. It would have to read something like "For God so loved His chosen that He gave His only begotten Son, that those whom He chose would not perish but have everlasting life". But God chose the words "world", whoever" and "should" for a reason. It describes choice.

If foreknowledge is omniscience then God is not omniscient. Jesus said I never knew you to those that claimed to do good deeds.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Secondly if foreknowledge is knowing before hand then salvation is based on those that will choose and not God's sovereignty. It makes God a respecter of persons because He "respects" them because they will choose and those that won't are not chosen.

And the "cosmos" translated world, does it mean every last person that lived in all the verses that it is used? Or is it a general term determined by the context as in:

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

There is clearly a distinction between the believers/disciples and the rest of humanity here.

So now how does your theology reconcile the fact that Jesus will not loose any of His people/sheep? And the pharasees were not His sheep and do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep to begin with.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus came to save His people from their sin. Those that are not His He did not come to save.

And how do you understand this verse.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[larryt]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Nobody reads that far back.

To be honest I've noticed the same sort of thing with other posts. It isn't you. Folks read the current page or the pages of content they follow since their last post and that's it. To add fuel to the fire I don't believe that folks even consider the words they read for more than a second or two, just enough time for a knee jerk response.

Certainly few come to these activities with a desire to learn something new. Opinions abound and the major impetus for participation is to vomit one's thoughts onto the internet. There is little or no reception of scholarly input here. Scripture quoted like holy bullets fired at one's opponent is about as far as it goes.

Have you looked on more popular sites such as the news? CNN is the big one. CNN is more like an electronic spittoon than a place to get accurate or intelligently composed public information. There's also a lot of computerized censoring going on that doesn't help much. But there are way$ around it, if you know what I meen.

It isn't you oneLight. If your posts are ignored, use the event as an opportunity to reiterate your assertion in a slightly different style. Think of it as an exercise in English composition. It certainly isn't an exercise in cerebral digestion by the reader(s).

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistable IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't.

[larryt]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.