Calvin vs. Arminius

[larryt]

That was a great post, All of Grace. That is one of the many things I disagree with Calvinism on. Regeneration does not precede faith. Larry, I would be interested in knowing where you disagree with Calvinism. You seem to hold to all the tenants of the Tulip. I would also like to add that you say a great many truths as well, but I disagree with a few things you say, and they mostly represent the Calvinist position. Either way you are my brother in Christ. Just keep in mind that those of us who disagree with the notion that God damns some men to hell by not choosing them comes from a sincere heart. The heart of care for souls. We have the love that God has given us and cringe at the thought of anyone perishing, nevertheless talking about a man or woman perishing because God destined them so. I have to believe that that doctrine is a complete misrepresentation of God and his character.

Does a baby have life before the seed is planted in the egg?

[OneLight]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Nobody reads that far back.

To be honest I've noticed the same sort of thing with other posts. It isn't you. Folks read the current page or the pages of content they follow since their last post and that's it. To add fuel to the fire I don't believe that folks even consider the words they read for more than a second or two, just enough time for a knee jerk response.

Certainly few come to these activities with a desire to learn something new. Opinions abound and the major impetus for participation is to vomit one's thoughts onto the internet. There is little or no reception of scholarly input here. Scripture quoted like holy bullets fired at one's opponent is about as far as it goes.

Have you looked on more popular sites such as the news? CNN is the big one. CNN is more like an electronic spittoon than a place to get accurate or intelligently composed public information. There's also a lot of computerized censoring going on that doesn't help much. But there are way$ around it, if you know what I meen.

It isn't you oneLight. If your posts are ignored, use the event as an opportunity to reiterate your assertion in a slightly different style. Think of it as an exercise in English composition. It certainly isn't an exercise in cerebral digestion by the reader(s).

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistable IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't.

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Hi, Onelight

I addressed your questions back in post 1345 page 68. Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Actually, history shows that you were responding to rjp34652 in that post because it was the post right after that where you told me to be patient and you will answer. I am not ignoring any post you address directly to me. So to keep it straight and inline, the next post after this is my post for you again to answer directly.

[OneLight]

Where do you get that in scripture. Where did it say God pricks the heart? What does that mean to say God pricks the heart? Because God convicts the world of sin does not imply that they will believe.

When the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, where does this take place? Is it in the body? Nope, the body does not hold our spirit. The mind? No, because in the mind we can just brush it off as a thought, but the heart is a place where we cannot ignore. God spoke of the intent of the heart in Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

The phrase "prick the heart" is a descriptive phrase describing what is going on, like "stub your toe".

I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16

So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

The idea of predestination without foreknowledge is either the result of taking scripture out of context or not knowing all of what scripture has to say about the subject of predestination. We must take all of scripture into account when we come to an understanding. If we do not, we can easily be led astray with having just partial understanding.

We read about foreknowledge being before predestination in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

What does it mean that God foreknew? Foreknew what? God, being Omniscient and Omnipresence is able to look through time to know who will and who will not choose Him. This means that everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen is in front of Him always. The idea that God chooses whom He will without the person ever having a choice goes against the very reason why Jesus came. The verse that is most popular in the whole world is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If predestination was true without choice, this would not be in scripture. It would have to read something like "For God so loved His chosen that He gave His only begotten Son, that those whom He chose would not perish but have everlasting life". But God chose the words "world", whoever" and "should" for a reason. It describes choice.

[saved34]

Does a baby have life before the seed is planted in the egg?

No it does not, and on this part you are right, it is just the process that I feel you are wrong on. Scripture is clear that "the seed planted" is the word of God. The word of God preached in the power of the Holy Spirit is what regenerates man, it is how God births his children.

1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Pe 1:25 BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

Jas 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

God does not birth men and women only to have them hear the word. He opens their hearts and minds through the word, the Holy Spirit enlightens the individual, then when he or she accepts the Gospel as truth, the Holy Spirit seals and regenerates the man or woman.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

This is the "water and the Spirit" that our Lord told Nicodemus about. The water of the word(the Gospel), and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

Joh 15:3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

This is the biblical way for the New Birth.

[larryt]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Nobody reads that far back.

To be honest I've noticed the same sort of thing with other posts. It isn't you. Folks read the current page or the pages of content they follow since their last post and that's it. To add fuel to the fire I don't believe that folks even consider the words they read for more than a second or two, just enough time for a knee jerk response.

Certainly few come to these activities with a desire to learn something new. Opinions abound and the major impetus for participation is to vomit one's thoughts onto the internet. There is little or no reception of scholarly input here. Scripture quoted like holy bullets fired at one's opponent is about as far as it goes.

Have you looked on more popular sites such as the news? CNN is the big one. CNN is more like an electronic spittoon than a place to get accurate or intelligently composed public information. There's also a lot of computerized censoring going on that doesn't help much. But there are way$ around it, if you know what I meen.

It isn't you oneLight. If your posts are ignored, use the event as an opportunity to reiterate your assertion in a slightly different style. Think of it as an exercise in English composition. It certainly isn't an exercise in cerebral digestion by the reader(s).

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistable IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't.

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Hi, Onelight

I addressed your questions back in post 1345 page 68. Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Actually, history shows that you were responding to rjp34652 in that post because it was the post right after that where you told me to be patient and you will answer. I am not ignoring any post you address directly to me. So to keep it straight and inline, the next post after this is my post for you again to answer directly.

I apologize it was 1344, and I was saying in 1346 that I don't answer all the time the same day as I don't get on the computer every day. So please check 1344. I do in fact try to check all the posts in this thread and give an answer when I can and find it relevent or in response to what I have already posted. And I will try to answer all that is addressed to me sometimes not right away and sometimes because I need to pray and study as to not be misunderstood as far as possible.

[enoob57]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Nobody reads that far back.

To be honest I've noticed the same sort of thing with other posts. It isn't you. Folks read the current page or the pages of content they follow since their last post and that's it. To add fuel to the fire I don't believe that folks even consider the words they read for more than a second or two, just enough time for a knee jerk response.

Certainly few come to these activities with a desire to learn something new. Opinions abound and the major impetus for participation is to vomit one's thoughts onto the internet. There is little or no reception of scholarly input here. Scripture quoted like holy bullets fired at one's opponent is about as far as it goes.

Have you looked on more popular sites such as the news? CNN is the big one. CNN is more like an electronic spittoon than a place to get accurate or intelligently composed public information. There's also a lot of computerized censoring going on that doesn't help much. But there are way$ around it, if you know what I meen.

It isn't you oneLight. If your posts are ignored, use the event as an opportunity to reiterate your assertion in a slightly different style. Think of it as an exercise in English composition. It certainly isn't an exercise in cerebral digestion by the reader(s).

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistable IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't.

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Hi, Onelight

I addressed your questions back in post 1345 page 68. Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Actually, history shows that you were responding to rjp34652 in that post because it was the post right after that where you told me to be patient and you will answer. I am not ignoring any post you address directly to me. So to keep it straight and inline, the next post after this is my post for you again to answer directly.

I apologize it was 1344, and I was saying in 1346 that I don't answer all the time the same day as I don't get on the computer every day. So please check 1344. I do in fact try to check all the posts in this thread and give an answer when I can and find it relevent or in response to what I have already posted. And I will try to answer all that is addressed to me sometimes not right away and sometimes because I need to pray and study as to not be misunderstood as far as possible.

I admire your heart in this! Love, Steven

[eyodis]

Hmmm... 69 pages of replies over a span of almost 9 years and we still don't have it nailed down yet.

Perhaps their are commonalities on our opinions we can agree on, e.g. regarding God's vs Man's will. What I mean is, if one says "God chooses by His sovereign will" and another says, "Man chooses by his God-given free will", do not they both agree that anyone who chooses Christ is never turned away by the father?

Or if a man is living in sin and his conscience justifies him, one theologian says, "The person lost their salvation" while another says "The person never actually had salvation." Are they both not talking about someone who needs to know Christ as Savior?

Despite our differences of theology or opinion, it seems to me we have more in common than we realize.

Blessings all!

[Guest]

Larry, I addressed your questions back in post . Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Hi, Onelight

I addressed your questions back in post 1345 page 68. Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

lol ~ He's Busy Busy Busy But I'm Sure He'll Be Here As Soon As He Can

[Angel1969]

I am 100% Calvinist ... the whole bible supports it if you read the root meaning of the more tripped up words such as "all" and keep things in context.

[OneLight]

Where do you get that in scripture. Where did it say God pricks the heart? What does that mean to say God pricks the heart? Because God convicts the world of sin does not imply that they will believe.

When the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, where does this take place? Is it in the body? Nope, the body does not hold our spirit. The mind? No, because in the mind we can just brush it off as a thought, but the heart is a place where we cannot ignore. God spoke of the intent of the heart in Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

The phrase "prick the heart" is a descriptive phrase describing what is going on, like "stub your toe".

You have not explained what you mean scripturally by "pricks the heart" or where you come up with this idea. Men need to stick with God's Word instead of trying to explain their own ideas to get around some of the paradoxes that cannot be explained by the natural man.

The passage you refer to is not about the spread of the Gospel so much as a condemnation of the world. The sheep have no need of having their heart pricked. Jesus said that they WOULD hear His voice, hear the Spirit, and Will follow Him. Those that are not His sheep won't!

The KJV, which you seem to prefer, speak of just this, pricking the heart. It is found in Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" In the NKJV it reads "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”" The phrase is scriptural and means convicting them strongly.

I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16

So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe.

And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

The idea of predestination without foreknowledge is either the result of taking scripture out of context or not knowing all of what scripture has to say about the subject of predestination. We must take all of scripture into account when we come to an understanding. If we do not, we can easily be led astray with having just partial understanding.

We read about foreknowledge being before predestination in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

What does it mean that God foreknew? Foreknew what? God, being Omniscient and Omnipresence is able to look through time to know who will and who will not choose Him. This means that everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen is in front of Him always. The idea that God chooses whom He will without the person ever having a choice goes against the very reason why Jesus came. The verse that is most popular in the whole world is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If predestination was true without choice, this would not be in scripture. It would have to read something like "For God so loved His chosen that He gave His only begotten Son, that those whom He chose would not perish but have everlasting life". But God chose the words "world", whoever" and "should" for a reason. It describes choice.

If foreknowledge is omniscience then God is not omniscient. Jesus said I never knew you to those that claimed to do good deeds.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Secondly if foreknowledge is knowing before hand then salvation is based on those that will choose and not God's sovereignty. It makes God a respecter of persons because He "respects" them because they will choose and those that won't are not chosen.

We have the ability to choose whom will will follow. We read of this in Jushus 24:15 "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Does this mean God is not Omniscience or Omniscient? Not at all. The ability for us to choose is His plan, not ours.

Does this mean God is not Sovereign? Not at all, since He created us with the ability to choose.

Does this mean that God is a respecter of man? That depends on what you believe that verse is speaking to. The word respecter is not speaking to the will of man to choose, but that He will not follow what mans decides if it goes against His will. In other words, if a man decides that God has to accept him the way he is because that is his choice, God will not respect that persons decision to be accepted while being out of His will. That does not mean that we don't have a choice, for 1 Corinthians 13 is all about love. There is no room for love to be forceful in this passage "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails". God gives us the ability to choose if we will follow Him or not. He will not force Himself on us so we have to accept. Everything about salvation has to be a willful act of the one seeking salvation.