Calvin vs. Arminius

[TheNewMan]

Your refutation of my refutation is not correct.

If you're going to be a student of the Bible, make your discussion from the Bible, please don't simply say "you're not right." That doesn't progress the discussion.

And it is impossible, even for God (who cannot lie - Titus 1:2), to reconcile two directly contradictory statement. The Law of Non-Contradiction (LNC) is absolute. Two contradictory positions cannot both be true. One is true, and the other is false, or else both are false. You say a Christian is guaranteed salvation one he is forgiven of his sins and saved the first time. The Bible says that man can take it upon himself to live unfaithfully and fall from grace, being estranged from Christ who he once followed. Both cannot be true, for both are in direct opposition to one another. To be honest, I must choose God over man, so I believe the Bible.

[TheNewMan]

To be honest, I have never been more disappointed in a response during a Biblical discussion. I searched for verses that you had used correctly; I couldn't find more than a few. In fact, many of the verses you used had absolutely nothing to do with what you were talking about, and I cannot fathom how you, in your own mind, thought you had succeeded in twisting those verses to your own false teachings, because what you say they mean is so very far off from the truth. What you have presented is not remotely recognizable as correct doctrine according to the Scriptures. It's depressing, to be blunt. Your "strong meat" is simply the workings of your own inner mind, and possess no mark of the truth of God. With that in mind, let's begin showing you why what you say is so incredibly false.

Examination of the Scritprues shows that the key to understanding this seeming inconsistency between these two doctrines is

Dt 29:29 - "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow (obey) all the words of this law." Deut reveals that God has a revealed will, and a secret will (see 1Co 4:1).

I think it would surprise you (unfortunately) to tell you that the secret things HAVE been revealed to us. The mysteries of God are ours to know now. The verse you used, 1 Corinthians 4:1, says this:

"Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God." This verse simply states that there are mysteries of God. It doesn't say that they have not been revealed to us. In fact, considering we are "stewards" of these mysteries, there is strong implication that those mysteries have been revealed to us. But the Bible provides more than implication of this fact.

Ephesians 1:9 says, "having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself." Wait a minute, he made KNOWN TO USE THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL?! Well, doesn't that mean that His will is not at all a mystery for those of us He has revealed to us? Yes it does. Before the kingdom of God was even established, Jesus had made known to His disciples the mysteries of the kingdom of God (Luke 8:10). These mysteries of God were kept secret since the world began, but have now been revealed to us throug h the preaching of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:25-26: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began, but now made manifest, and by prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--"

The revelation of the mystery, now made manifest and by prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, so that we might be OBEDIENT to the faith, to His will. I don't see how you could possibly think that God would not reveal His WILL to us. Obviously He does. These "mysteries" that you seem to think represent things that have not been revealed to us, HAVE been revealed. That is how we OBEY.

Now, seeing that your whole "secret will" doctrine is crushed, the rest of your point is completely worthless, because it hinges on the assumption that there is a will God has not revealed to us.

We see the relationship between the secret things and the revealed things, which we are to obey, in Ex 7:1-3.

In v.2, God gives his revealed will for Pharoah, "Let Israel go."

Then in v.3, God gives his secret will for Pharoah (secret to Pharoah, but not to Moses), "But I will harden his heart. . .so that he will not listen to you."

NB: The first mention of Pharoah's heart in the account (4:23) is that God will harden his heart (also in Dt 2:26-30). We'll return to this later. But for now, back to the account.

You have, as many people have, a wrong understanding of this account. Let me show you.

What we have in Exodus is this: God says at the beginning that he will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21, 7:4-5). The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is then described in several different ways:

Pharaoh's heart became hard (Ex 7:13, 23)

Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:15, 32)

God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 9:7, 10:20)

However, when the Bible says Pharaoh hardens his heart, it also says that this happened "just as the Lord had said" (Ex 8:15). In particular, consider Exodus 9:34-10:2:

When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

In other words, Pharaoh's hardening his heart is considered to be the same as God hardening Pharaoh's heart. I take this to mean that Pharaoh did the actual hardening, as we see it - he decided on his own to not listen to God and let the Israelites go. But God knew in advance what Pharaoh would do in any given situation, and deliberately placed Pharaoh in this situation (i.e. God decided that Pharaoh would be born at the time and place that he was and thus placed him in this position of power). (See Exodus 9:13-16.) Thus God brought about the situation, namely that Moses would encounter a pharaoh whose heart was hardened against God, though Pharaoh hardened his heart of his own free will.

So what are the implications of Dt 29:29?

First, that God's revealed will (Arminianism) to come, to repent, to believe, to be saved (Rev 22:17; Eze 18:32; Mk 1:15; Ac 2:49, 17:30; 1Tim 2:4; 2Pe 3:9, etc.); i.e., words we are to obey, are in fact disobeyed does not mean that God's secret will (Calvinism) is not done (Mt 18:7; Mk 13:7, 14:21; Jn 13:27; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Ro 11:25; Eph 1:11).

I will now explain why none of these verses have anything to do with what you are talking about.

Matthew 18:7 is speaking in the context of people who cause others (children) to sin, and Jesus says that woe will come to them that do this. It has nothing to do with a "secret will."

Mark 13:7 is a verse in the midst of a prophetic statement by Jesus, who makes mention of the time when the temple will be destroyed. He tells them not to listen to false teachers, but to endure the hardship that will come from preaching the gospel faithfully. No mention of a secret will.

Mark 14:21 is Jesus' response to the disciples, who have asked which one of them will betray Him (He just revealed in verse 18 that one of them would betray Him). No mention of a secret will.

John 13:27 is Jesus talking to Judas, telling Him to do quickly what he already plans to do. No mention of a secret will, and Judas clearly has complete free will in betraying Jesus. It is Jesus will that He will be betrayed, but He does not force Judas, or even influence Judas to do so. The plan was the Jews', and he willingly accepted, having become tempted by greed.

Acts 2:23 is Peter saying that God always knew Jesus would be betrayed, but let it happen because it served His purpose. However, the men who killed Jesus were still sinning, and were guilty of the sin.

Acts 4:28 is part of a prayer to God, in which the followers of God tell Him they are willing to do what He tells them to do, according to His purpose. Obviously, if they are going to do what He tells them to do, He has to TELL THEM what to do. No "secret will."

Acts 13:48 is at MOST a verse that shows us that God knows who will and who will not obey Him. His foreknowledge of everyone's actions does not remove our free will. It was their choice to believe. No "secret will."

Romans 11:25 shows us that we are not to be ignorant of God's will for the Gentiles to become (as the Jews) God's people. If we are not to ignorant of this will, it means it has been revealed to us. No "secret will."

Ephesians 1:11 shows us that God's people were predestined to receive an inheritance. The people who are predestined to receive this inheritance are people who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

So, yeah, these verses don't mention a secret will. Why? Because there is no commandment that God has for us that He has not revealed. There are things that we do not know of, such as the time of Jesus' return (Matthew 24:36), but these things are of no importance to our salvation.

Second, when Scripture indicates that something happens contrary to God's will (Ex 9:17), it is contrary to God's revealed will (Ex 9:13). Nothing is contrary to God's secret will (Ex 4:21; Ps 33:10; Pr 20:24; Is 8:10, 14:24, Lam 3:37; Ac 4:28).

I also looked through these verses, and not a one of them made any mention to a secret will, nor a contrast between a will that is revealed and a will that is not revealed. Please do not misuse the Scriptures. Anyway, since Ephesians 1:9 and Romans 16:25 show us that the mysteries of God's will have been made known to all nations, your claim that there is a secret will of God is not remotely convincing or Biblical. It is wrong.

Third, while Scripture shows that God's secret will for men (Ex 10:1-2, 11:9-10, 14:4, 17) is not always the same as his revealed will for men (Ex 9:13-16), it is his revealed will that is to govern men's actions. His secret will governs his actions. Sometimes those wills coincide, as they did for Paul (Ac 9:15-16); sometimes they do not, as they did not for Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23). But mankind will be judged by the revealed will of God (Arminianism), the words they are to obey, and not by the secret will of God (Calvinism).

This is where you contradict yourself. You say man will be judged by his obedience or disobedience, and yet you also claim that obedience is worthless because God chose certain people to be saved no matter what, and chose others to be doomed no matter what. Not only does this contradict your own statement, but also the word of the Lord, who wishes that all would be saved (2 Peter 3:9). THAT is His will, His revealed will, considering there is no secret will of God that affects our salvation.

Fourth, the God of the Bible is sovereign.

God's will is not thwarted by men (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35), but quite the contrary, man's will is thwarted by God (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10).

Nor are the plans of God conditioned on, or determined by, the actions of men (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28).

Likewise, God sustains no loss because of the actions of men (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48; Mt 5:26).

There is no disagreement here. God does what He plans, and His plan is that men would obey Him, and He would save those who believe and obey (Mark 16:16; Romans 10:9-10; Hebrews 5:9; 1 Peter 3:21).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing "in advance" what men are going to do.

The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do. (See Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Ro 9:18; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).

God knows in advance what is going to happen, because he has ordained that it shall happen.

Refer back to what I said about Pharaoh. God, knowing the hearts of men and how they will react, has in time past put them in situations where He knows they will fail or succeed. It is still their choice, because God only provides the cause, He does not enforce the effect. God does not make men sin, nor tempt them to sin (James 1:13,14 - "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed"), but in fact provides a way of escape from sin (1 Corinthians 10:13 - "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."). God provided men such as Pharaoh with a way of escape. And yet they were drawn away by their own desires and enticed as James 1:14 says. You are causing the Bible to contradict itself, no matter what you say about the "secret will of God." You're saying God is allowed to contradict Himself, to lie, in secret, but not out in the open. But God cannot lie at all (Titus 1:2).

So in light of all the Scriptures, there is no doctrinal inconsistency between Arminianism and Calvinism.

Except that they directly contradict each other. I wish you would not call Christianity "Arminianism". It is Christianity. Calvanism is not Christianity, nor is Arminianism Christianity. Christianity is Christianity.

And finally: God hardens men's hearts.

Actually, men's hearts are hardened from birth, as the result of Adam's sin (Mk 3:5, 6:52, 8:17-21, 10:5, 16:14; Mt 13:14-15; Eph 2:3)). They have to be "unhardened" (Jn 3:3, 5-6)) by God's grace. All God has to do is withdraw his softening grace in order to "harden" men's hearts, or to confirm them in their hardness.

Um... none of those verses say that all men's hearts are hardened as a result of Adam's sin. Interesting. Ephesians 2:3 is the closest to your point, which says that all men naturally fulfill their lust (which says the same thing as Romans 3:23, which says that all men have sinned), because the flesh and the spirit war (1 Peter 2:11), but it does not say that men cannot have humble hearts when they hear the gospel and realize they are doing wrong. In fact, the Bible shows us that men have the ability to be humble and repent, seeing as repentance is commanded of us (of US, not of God) in Acts 2:38.

And by saying God withdraws His grace and causes us to sin is saying that God makes us sin, which directly goes against what GOD teaches in James 1:13-14. Sorry sir, your doctrine is not correct.

SUMMARY: God not only is sovereign, he also acts sovereignly.

Agreed. He does what He wants to do. However, it is not in His will to rob us of His free will. If it was, then all men would be saved, because He wants all of us to be saved (2 Peter 3:9). By saying He doesn't control our actions and force us to repent or believe does not limit His power in any way. HE tells us and shows us that HE chooses to act that way. I don't cause Him to do that, He caused Himself to do that.

Edited August 17, 2011 by TheNewMan

[TheNewMan]

My biggest weakness is not reacting to people in love. I get easily frustrated when discussing God's word. Thanks for discussing this with me.

[TheNewMan]

Hey guys! I'd like to get this conversation back under way.

To continue the discussion (addressing the post by our friend Eleanor73), I'd like to state that on the grounds of Ephesians 1:9 and Romans 16:23-25, there is no secret will from God, and therefore only the words written in the Bible are relevant when discussing salvation. In light of this position, I'd like to present again a few Scriptures that seem to teach a doctrine contrary to the Calvinist doctrine.

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

Mark 16:15-16 - "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.""

These verses teach that it is not God's will that men would be lost. Why, then, would he condemn some and save others? They also teach that salvation comes from God, but that there are conditions that men must meet if they want God to give them salvation. According to the language used in these verses, anyone who meets these requirements can be saved.

[TheNewMan]

Are you sure about that?

Yes, the revealed will of God is what is relevant to salvation, and is the basis on which what mankind will be judged.

But that is not all that is found in the Bible.

Perhaps you could addresn the Biblical evidence seen in Pharoah's situation (Ex 7:1-3),

where God commanded him to let his people go, after he had announced to Moses (Ex 4:21) that he would harden Pharoah's heart so that he would not obey God.

Two wills of God are seen in this instance, and they are seemingly contrary.

What do you think of the Biblical principle in Dt 29:29 and 1Co 4:1?

That's an interesting account, because the hardening of Pharaoh's heart is addresses a few different ways. In Exodus 7:13, 23, the Bible says that Pharaoh's heart became hard. However, in Exodus 8:15, 32, the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart. So how do we harmonize these two different descriptions? I think that the only logical way to explain it is that Pharaoh made the decision to harden his own heart, but God put him in a situation in which he would have to make the decision about whether or not he would harden his heart. God caused all these events to take place, and he knew that Pharaoh was weak. But if we say that God forced Pharaoh to harden his heart, then we say that God tempted Pharaoh to sin, and even caused him to sin, which is the utmost sacrilege and disrespect to God. We know that God tempts know one to sin and there is no sin in God (James 1:13).

We honestly can't say that God ever causes anyone to sin or to be sinful, which is a big part of the Calvinistic doctrine.

The Biblical principle in 1 Corinthians 4:1 is that the apostles were entrusted with the secret things of God. And these things have been made known to us through the apostles, as we can see in Romans 16:25, and Ephesians 1:9. So the secret things of God and the mystery of His will are not mysterious to us anymore. That is the blessing we have in Christ.

[Oneaccords]

In dealing with the Five Points of Calvinism, It is certainly fitting that five is the number of death, so the Five Points of Calvinism will kill anything near it. Just as it takes no keen intellect to see that five is the biblical number of death, so no insight is necessary, other than an ability to read the Bible, to see the flagrant perversion that the Five Points of Calvinism make of Holy Scripture. Satan, the angel of death is the fifth cherub (Ezek 28:14) and has the power of death (Heb 2:14). The first man dies in Genesis 5:5. In Acts 5:5, Ananias dies after being asked five questions about his sin ("The wages of sin is death" [Rom 6:23]). Paul was whipped five times (2 Cor 11:24). Jesus Christ had five wounds. In Revelation chapter five, we see the Lamb that was slain (Rev 5). During the Tribulation, locusts will torment men for five months (Rev 9:5) until they seek death (Rev 9:6). When the fifth seal was opened, John saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain (Rev 6:9). There were five men stoned in the Bible that died. The "sin unto death" is in First John chapter five. The greatest chapter in the Bible on death, describing two men whose deaths affected billions of people, is Romans chapter five.

[TheNewMan]

Eleanor, I think you need to realize that God cannot lie. By inspiration, He tells us in James 1:13 that He cannot tempt men to sin. By saying that God forced Pharaoh to harden his heart, you are saying that God caused Pharaoh to sin. Therefore, you are saying that God was a liar when He said that He doesn't tempt men to sin.

It also causes God to be a liar by saying that God was not being truthful when He said in 2 Peter 3:9 that He doesn't want ANYONE to perish, but that they would have everlasting life.

Also, 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that God has given us the knowledge of all things that pertain to life and godliness. If there was a secret will of God that decided who was saved or not saved, and we had no knowledge of this will, this would cause God to be lying when He says that He has given us all knowledge pertaining to life and godliness.

We cannot call God a liar.

[apologia828]

Eleanor, I think you need to realize that God cannot lie. By inspiration, He tells us in James 1:13 that He cannot tempt men to sin. By saying that God forced Pharaoh to harden his heart, you are saying that God caused Pharaoh to sin. Therefore, you are saying that God was a liar when He said that He doesn't tempt men to sin.

It also causes God to be a liar by saying that God was not being truthful when He said in 2 Peter 3:9 that He doesn't want ANYONE to perish, but that they would have everlasting life.

Also, 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that God has given us the knowledge of all things that pertain to life and godliness. If there was a secret will of God that decided who was saved or not saved, and we had no knowledge of this will, this would cause God to be lying when He says that He has given us all knowledge pertaining to life and godliness.

We cannot call God a liar.

Here's an important question for you. Did God create Pharaoh to do what he did? Was it God's purpose or not to use Pharaoh to demonstrate His perfect wrath? If not then why does Paul ask the question, You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” Romans 9:19 HCSB

Just before this he clearly states:

Rom 9:16-18

16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. HCSB

What is it that paul says depends upon God? What is it that the context is referring to? The context simply put is whether you are one of God's children or not. Whether He loves you as He did Jacob or will hate you as He did Esau. Romans 9 is so clear yet so many just choose to ignore

it.

Now as far as 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. HCSB

Again context is key. Who is Peter addressing in this letter? He says "is patient with you". We can't automatically task the all in this passage to mean everyone in the world. He's particularly patient with His sheep, the church. The Father brings His elect to repentance and belief in the truth.

Finally, in dealing with your last point, I don't see how 1 Peter 1:3 says what you are claiming.

1Pe 1:3

3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. HCSB

Besides, would the Lord then have to reveal to us the names of all those who will be saved. No where in Scripture does it state that God has to reveal anything to us sinners about His divine will.

Almost forgot another issue. It's absolutely true that God tempts no one. Pharaoh out of the evil nature of His heart committed those sins but the point still remains that God formed Him to be a vessel of dishonor to display His wrath upon. To, summarize God is sovereign, man is not.

Edited September 24, 2011 by apologia828

[TheNewMan]

Here's an important question for you. Did God create Pharaoh to do what he did? Was it God's purpose or not to use Pharaoh to demonstrate His perfect wrath? If not then why does Paul ask the question, You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” Romans 9:19 HCSB

Just before this he clearly states:

Rom 9:16-18

16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. HCSB

What is it that paul says depends upon God? What is it that the context is referring to? The context simply put is whether you are one of God's children or not. Whether He loves you as He did Jacob or will hate you as He did Esau. Romans 9 is so clear yet so many just choose to ignore

it.

Created and "raised up" are different concepts. God allowed Pharaoh to come into a position of power. God created the world, and created a chain of events that lay the foundation for the rest of the outcomes of the entire world. Therefore, it is because of God (the creator of all things) that this particular Pharaoh inherited an empire like Egypt. Because he inherited this empire, he inherited the mentality that all Pharaoh's had, that he was a god. Because Pharaoh considered himself a god, he was far less likely to have the humility to listen to God's commands. God obviously knew this, so He decided that Joseph and his brothers should go down to Egypt, should live there, and should populate the area, knowing that there would arise a Pharaoh who would enslave them. God didn't cause the Pharaoh to make slaves of Israel. However, God DID present to Pharaoh a very clear proposition: let My people go, or be punished. Because of everything that had happened in Pharaoh's life, and even before his life (the things which had caused him to be born into a society in which he was considered a god), Pharaoh was disposed to rebel against God. God did not force him to, and the reason this is an irrefutable statement is because of 2 Peter 3:9, which I will deal with later.

Now as far as 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. HCSB

Again context is key. Who is Peter addressing in this letter? He says "is patient with you". We can't automatically task the all in this passage to mean everyone in the world. He's particularly patient with His sheep, the church. The Father brings His elect to repentance and belief in the truth.

Nope. You're twisting that verse. It does not say that. It says "anyone" and "all." Don't twist the words of the Bible to fit your theology. Also read Romans 2:6-11.

6 "who (God, see v.5) will render to each one according to his deeds":

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,

9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

So EVERYONE will be judged according to HIS DEEDS, because GOD HAS NO PARTIALITY. Very important principles to understand.

Finally, in dealing with your last point, I don't see how 1 Peter 1:3 says what you are claiming.

1Pe 1:3

3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. HCSB

Besides, would the Lord then have to reveal to us the names of all those who will be saved. No where in Scripture does it state that God has to reveal anything to us sinners about His divine will.

It doesn't say He has to, but 2 Peter 1:3 says that He DOES. And no, the Lord would NOT have to reveal us the names of all those who will be saved. That is a complete non sequitur, and is completely illogical and irrelevant. The verse still stands as saying that God has provided US all things that pertain to OUR life and godliness

Almost forgot another issue. It's absolutely true that God tempts no one. Pharaoh out of the evil nature of His heart committed those sins but the point still remains that God formed Him to be a vessel of dishonor to display His wrath upon. To, summarize God is sovereign, man is not.

You're basically saying the same thing: that God created Pharaoh to be forced to sin. This is saying God forces him to sin, which is the same as God causing sin, which is against the principle taught in James 1:13. No, like I said before, God, through the fact the He created the world, and told men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph to do certain things, therefore changing the course of history, allowed Pharaoh to be born into a family and society that would be very prideful and indisposed to obey the word of the Lord. God did NOT force him to sin.

An analogy would be this: imagine that you set a stick of butter, and a ball of clay next to each other on the pavement on a very sunny, hot day. The butter melts, but the clay hardens.

The sun represents God telling us what to do. The butter represents the heart that is soft and humble and ready to do God's will. It melts, because it's nature is to be melted. The clay represents the proud heart that is hardened because it will not obey. Does God act differently toward the two? No, just like the sunlight that hits the butter isn't different from the sunlight that hits the clay. It's the butter and the clay, the humble and proud hearts, that themselves make the difference of how the sun is received.

[apologia828]

I need to apologize for my last post. I wrote it in a rush therefore it was not as complete a response as I would like to have given. Allow me to explain myself better. In regards to the situation with the Pharaoh, the Scripture as a whole teaches us that although Pharaoh committed that evil out of the sinful desires of his heart God purposed and planned the whole event. If you disagree then the question Paul asks still stands.

Rom 9:19-21

19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

He asks this question anticipating the objection "but if God used Pharaoh in this way then how can he be blamed for who can resist His will?" You see, if the previous Scripture is correctly interpreted then the question Paul poses is correctly understood. How can Gods blame or accuse Pharaoh for what he did on judgement day. Well, lets look at the rest of Paul's response.

20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? HCSB

There is no question here regarding the context. God created or formed (the words are synonyms) Pharaoh for a specific purpose. You may not like it but there is only one correct interpretation and it is not obscure by any means. The whole point being that God has the right to do with man as He wills. He is the sovereign king of the universe! I believe God is absolutely allowed the right to make one man a vessel of honor and the other of dishonor. As it is stated in verse 15 "I will have mercy on whom I will mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." That's why Paul raises the question he does in verse 19.

Now, in regards to 2 Peter 3:9 I am in no way twisting the Scripture. I am simply viewing it through the lens of the entirety of Scripture and therefore not assuming that all refers to every single human being that has ever lived. You make that assumption on top of Scripture. Look at this passage:

Mark 1:5

5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were flocking to him, and they were baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. HCSB

Are you telling me that every single person in Jerusalem went out to the countryside and got baptized as they confessed their sins?

Now take a look at Romans 9:22

22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB

It appears that God also has patience in waiting to display His wrath and power on the objects of wrath ready for destruction. Other versions say fitted or prepared for destruction. The greek word used is κατάρτιζο which means to fit, prepare, mend, etc. Now look at it compared to 2 Peter 3:9.

9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. HCSB

If the Lord had prepared certain vessels to dishonor and fitted them to destruction then He obviously is not waiting for them to repent. That Would be completely illogical. Therefore, all as previously demonstrated does not always mean every single person in the Cosmos.

Now, you also posted this:

Romans 2:6 "who will render to each one according to his deeds" and underlined "according to his deeds"

Are you the stating that salvation comes by deeds/works? If so we need to start another thread. I believe everything that verse says. Those who persevere will enter heaven, but the question is how do they persevere? Lets look at Scripture.

Eph 2:8-10

8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. HCSB

Tit 3:5

5 He saved us — not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. HCSB

Which one of those last two things did we do. I know I didn't regenerate myself or renew myself by the Holy Spirit. This is talking about the new birth and Jesus clearly states in John 3 that unless you are reborn of the Spirit you will not be saved.

I believe what Romans 2:6 is saying is that God will bring righteousness punishment upon evildoers. I agree.

You also underlined verse 11 which say that God shows no partiality but in what question does He show no partiality. Look at the previous verse.

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Paul is saying that salvation is no longer solely given to the Jews but has now been granted unto the Gentiles. God doesn't care whether you're Jewish, Chinese, Indian, or American. Nothing I have stated contradicts that.

In fact Romans 9:11-13 says:

11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand — 12 not from works but from the One who calls — she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau. HCSB

This contradicts your interpretation of Romans 2:6.

2 Peter 1:3 says

3 His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. HCSB

Nowhere does it say we have been given all knowledge. Out says God has supplied us with all we need according to life and godliness but even if it said he gave us all knowledge it couldn't be referring to knowledge all things as we know it. I don't know everything I need to know about godliness. By the Holy Spirit I can receive and continue growing in all of that knowledge but if you knew all of it you would have to be God Himself.

Moving along, I have no problem with James 1:13. God does not tempt anyone however He has used Satan and evil men to carry out His will on multiple occasions. Look at the sin David committed when taking a census of Israel. Here are thee two texts describing the exact same event however you will notice one considerable difference.

2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

Lets take a look at another example where God actually sends a evil spirit to Saul moving him to attempt to kill David.

1Samuel 19:9-10

9 Now an evil spirit sent from the Lord came on Saul as he was sitting in his palace holding a spear. David was playing the lyre, 10 and Saul tried to pin David to the wall with the spear. As the spear struck the wall, David eluded Saul, ran away, and escaped that night. HCSB

What we need to understand is that God uses many different types of means to fulfill His purposes. I could continue but I think these two examples are clear enough.

As I stated in the beginning, I do not believe that God forced Pharaoh to do what He did. Pharaoh did what he did because he was a sinner and had no other option but to sin. How can I know this? Well, Roman 8:7,8 says 7 For the mind- set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit itself to God’s law, for it is unable to do so. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. HCSB As sinners we are slaves to sin. Therefore, all Pharaoh could do was give in to sin. The only way we can possibly do good is by the grace of God. Jesus told us in John 15 that without Him we can do nothing.

Finally, the unfortunate thing about your analogy you provided is that Paul shows us that it is actually the sun that makes the clay to be that hard clay and the butter to be butter. As previously quoted he says:

Romans 9:21Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?

Brother in Christ, please look at these passages, God is the potter. He molds the clay. He has true sovereignty to do as he pleases. Ephesians 1:11 states "We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB Please take the time to deeply examine these Scriptures. I believe you can see that I have. Well, I think I've covered everything but I'll be eagerly awaiting your response. Thank you

Edited September 28, 2011 by apologia828