Calvin vs. Arminius

[EricH]

[quote name='Bro David

[Guest Bro David™]

Let me ask you a question. If it depends totally on our choice, why do some people make the decision and some do not. What is the differentiating factor?

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Free Will.

That is the differentiating Factor.

[Guest Bro David™]

[quote name='Bro David

[Guest Bro David™]

2 Corinthians 5:14 is addressed to believers who have died with Christ (See also Galatians 2:20). It is not a verse that is talking about the unsaved. The "all" here is all who have died with Christ. You misapplied this verse brother. In the greek the sense is that Christ died for all believers, therefore all believers died with Him and are constrained by His love. The word in your version "then" is the greek partical "ara". Its sense is "consequently". So the logic is that  Christ died for all and as a consequence the all died. It can only apply to believers. Unbelievers are not dead due to Christ's death. They are dead due to sin. This verse says that the  "all" are dead because Christ died. Clearly this is in reference to believers who were "crucified with Christ. This is born out in verse 16 that says that we no longer live for ourselves we live for Him. It echoes Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.

See also Romas 6:8

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

In fact the entire section is addressed to believers. It speaks of the bema judgement (believers only), and our behavior subsequent to salvation.

All Matthew 25:42 says is that hell was created for Satan and his angels. It does not say that God did not know or intend all that rebel against Him to go there, or that He did not know who they were that would go there. It does not really prove anything.

Remember, we all deserve to be in hell. All election means is that God selected some out of that group to be saved.

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I gave the verses to Book Wirm in the understanding that he has studied the Scriptures.

2 Corin 5 - There are Pauline lines that touch on the dead in Christ.

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

These touch on being Born again.

14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16: Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Go through it once again my friend.

It is talking about being Born Again.

In fact the entire section is addressed to believers. It speaks of the bema judgement (believers only), and our behavior subsequent to salvation.

True.

So how do you think Reconciliation works if he was only addressing the dead in Christ ?

20: Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

All Matthew 25:42 says is that hell was created for Satan and his angels. It does not say that God did not know or intend all that rebel against Him to go there, or that He did not know who they were that would go there. It does not really prove anything

Firstly we are not here defending the view that those who reject Christ will spend eternity in Hell.

Secondly God is all knowing He is the beginning and He is the end.

It does prove something that Hell was created not for Men.

In first agreeing to that statement, how then can one say God created a part of Humanity just to send them to Hell.

In anycase I was awaiting Pastor Eric-Book Wirm to respond with His Theological stance.

Theological not Assumption of what one thinks a verse to perceive.

In anycase Eric I am but sharing my views and what I know.

If I do come accrues has attacking do drop me a Message and I will stop.

Like what Pastor Eric- Book Wirm said I would rather gain a brother than win my View over.

Praise the Lord.

YBIC

[EricH]

[quote name='Bro David

[EricH]

[quote name='Bro David

[Guest Bro David™]

David,

I love you man, but you are ignoring rules of gramar and how you interperet sentences. For instance:

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

The verse asserts they God loved the world to a certain extent (so much)

It then says "that". In the greek that is the particle oste. It is used to identify a subordinate clause and Identify "result". You could translate it "therefore". In other words God loved the whole word so much that this love motivated him to send His son.

The next word is "that". This time the greek word is "ina" It expresses result. That means the next clause is subordinate on God's sending of His Son. It explains that the result of this sending is that any one who believes in Him should not perish. The act of believing is not subordinate in the sentence to God's love. It is subordinate to God's sending. That is what the grammar reveals.

In other words the verse affirms that God sent  Jesus because of His love for the world. It also affirms that as a result of this sending, anyone who believes will be saved. The verse does not address how those who come to belief came to belief. It only affirms what happens to them once they do.

Now lets look at Ephesians 1:1-9. Specifically starting with verse 4:

The letter is written to the believers at Ephesus. Paul states:

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love

The us is clearly believers.  The greek word meaning to choose or select is in the aorist tense which describes concrete action in the past. God chose believers in the past. The verse also states when "before the foundation of the world". In addition in verse 5 it says he predestined us. The greek word literally means to set apart beforehand. It is also in the aorist tense.

He chose us to be holy and blameless (verse 4)

He predestined us to adoption as sons

Clearly we were chosen before the foundation of the world. By the way assertion (Stating to be fact) is the same as declaring

Again, the grammar and structure do not allow for your interpretation. You must aloow the grammar to dictate your interpretation

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I love you too,

firstly grammar in greek/Hebrew is very diff from English but I am going to presume you already know that.

It still says whosoever, which is really my focal point.

Secondly following that Line of thought here...

J- 3:16

Outwv gar hgaphsen (5656) o qeov ton kosmon, wste ton uion ton monogenh edwken, (5656) ina pav o pisteuwn (5723) eiv auton mh apolhtai (5643) all' exh (5725) zwhn aiwnion.

Aorist --Indicative

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

That my freind is a correct exgesis of the verse in Greek.

The mood then is Love.

The line in Greek is not so much has limited in any way.

Second Aorist -

Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."

How can potentiality come into play in a verse that speaks of Having known.

Ephesians 1:1-9

Verse 4 has you have said.

kaqwv ecelecato hmav en autw pro katabolhv kosmou, einai (5750) hmav agiouv kai amwmouv katenwpion autou en agaph,

Aortist:

Participle

The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the English participle, reflecting "-ing" or "-ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun."

Take note: Eric

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

How then can the verse only imply something that has happened before when It is was used with grammar that intonates that it was and is still on going.

The only reason can be that Salvation is still a open choice done with a free will and not a predestined installed Order.

YBIC

[Guest Bro David™]

[quote name='Bro David

[EricH]

[quote name='Bro David

[Guest Bro David™]

So you are saying that God gives us all free will, but in the case of some Satan distorts the truth of salvation and for others he does not?

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Again the choise is not up to satan Eric.

Satan tries to claim has many souls has he can.

That is why he is called the accuser of brethren.

He keeps trying to tempt us one way or another.

It is our choice.

I gave up smoking, not because I managed to win the temptation of the devil.

I gave up because I choose to belive in Jesus more than my Body and needs.

The next day he threw the, want to smoke out.

If I had tried to explain my smoking away in that it is not stated has a sin in the Bible.

I would then be seriously in the line that goes down there should Jesus return that very second.

I trusted Him and He delivered me.

I decided and He fulfilled.

YBIC