Calvin vs. Arminius

[EricH]

You know that I don't believe that Eric.

[EricH]

I found something interesting...

It's a quote from A.W. Tozer in regards to God's sovergnty and Man's Free will:

Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil

Absolutely agree. Adam was given that choice in Eden. He chose evil. Now that ability to choose has been tainted. God also created man to have relationship with Him, but that was tainted in the garden as well. Man cannot choose good. man can no longer relate to God on his own. The bible says that even men's righteousness is like filthy rags before God. We are spritually dead. So the ability to choose correctly as God sees it is gone. Now this does not mean that mankind cannot do things that are good at some level. We see unsaved people helping others etc all the time. But even those things are tainted by sin, and ultimately do not please God.

Even when Peter came to the conclusion that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus said he did not get there on His own. God had to help him get there.

Each person does not start with a blank slate like Adam did. We are now born with sin on our account, so we can't choose good in the ultimate sense. We are not born in fellowship with God as Adam was. We are born at emnity with God.

When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it.

I agree partially with Tozer here. I agree that when Adam chose evil he did not countervail the sovereign will of God. But that is not because God's only eternal decree was that man have a free moral choice.There were many other eternal decrees (that Christ would come to forgive sin etc.). There are two aspects of God's will: His prescriptive and permissive. In other words God is not the author of sin, but He permitted it. It was part of his eternal decree thay sin would enter the world through Adam. God has not responsibility for this, but it was one of his decrees none-the-less.

If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say,

[EricH]

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him they should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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In terms of Luke 5:32 is says he came to call sinners to repentance. It does not say all will come, or how the ones that do come will be enabled to repond

John 3:16 just says that whoever believes will be saved. It does not say how they will be enabled to believe

[EricH]

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[EricH]

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

Agree, but only those whom God calls will call on His name

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Romans 13:2

Agree, that is the default path for humans

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. I John 2:23

Agree, and only those whom God calls will acknowlege the Son

Hey,

How about you interact with Romans 8:29. And you cannot say predestined only means to know. It just doesn't, unless you can provide proof

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

or Romans 8:30

And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

or John 6:44

No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him

or

Ephesians 1:5

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

or Ephesians 1:11

Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His

purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Or John 15:16

You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

or Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

or 2 Thess 2:13

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord,

because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

or Revelation 13:7-8

And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

It only seems fair that you wrestle with my position as well

[book_wirm]

I have said over and over and over... I believe that Salvation is a GIFT from God OFFERED to ALL people.

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Please explain for me, then, how that gift is offered to those who will never hear the gospel...let alone the name of Jesus.

I found something interesting...

It's a quote from A.W. Tozer in regards to God's sovergnty and Man's Free will:

Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say,

[Guest Bro David™]

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him they should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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In terms of Luke 5:32 is says he came to call sinners to repentance. It does not say all will come, or how the ones that do come will be enabled to repond

John 3:16 just says that whoever believes will be saved. It does not say how they will be enabled to believe

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Hi EricH,

Luke 5:32 says He came to call sinners.

True it does not say all will come.

True it does not say how they will come.

But it does say "sinners" meaning those that are not saved yet.

How does that add up to saying I came to save the pre-selected ?

Or why must it say that how it will come to pass ?

John 3:16

It does say how, they will get enabled.

"that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him they should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The word whosoever is transliterated to be called - Pas

Pas means:

individually

each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

collectively

of all types

It is an Adjective.

Which when simplified means " anyone.

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The word believeth is transliterated to be called- Pisteuo

Pisteuo means:

to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

of the thing believed

to credit, have confidence

in a moral or religious reference

used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

Which when used in the Context of the Tone means to Have Faith in Jesus that he is indeed from God and sent by God.

---------------------------------

It does say how they will be enabled, by having Faith in Christ.

[Guest Bro David™]

Tozer is very good and I enjoy him, but he is not scripture.

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Dear EriH,

Howdy Mate

I do not know if you have studied the works of John Calvin and Beza, or their Lives.

If you did, then you will know that there was no precedent for the T.U.L.I.P:

It was brought out by the reformation.

How then do you conclude that Tozer's Sermon is not Scripture but that Calvinism is somehow Biblical ?

[Guest Bro David™]

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

Agree, but only those whom God calls will call on His name

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Dear EricH,

Lets look at one verse per say.

Romans 10:13, says whosoever, shall call upon the name of the Lord.... will be Saved.

How does that say only those that God calls to you ?

It says very simply that anyone who calls on God's name shall be saved.

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Romans 13:2

Agree, that is the default path for humans

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I am Glad you agree, what does it say here :

That whosoever resisted the power, resisted the ordinance.....

They shall receive Damnation....

It means those that will reject will be damned.

Reject what ?

The ordinance of God.

How can one reject the ordinance when according to John, one will be brought from within towards that ordinance ?

Why would then anyone be damned for rejecting the ORDINANCE ?

Hey,

How about you interact with Romans 8:29. And you cannot say predestined only means to know. It just doesn't, unless you can provide proof

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

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Firstly like, Moses who was Chosen to lead, here in this verse, Paul was talking about Saints of God.

Look closely.

27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You should know this is a Calling verse more so because your a Pastor.

Romans 8:30 is also in this Context.

Those that are called to serve.

Ephesians 1:5-12

  5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,  6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

  7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;  8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

  9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

  10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

  11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

  12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

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Ephesians 1 is Paul writing a letter to the Saints and the believers in Christ, in Ephesus.

Let me get you a John Wesley Commentary on the 5th Verse.

5: Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons - Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint - heirs with Christ. According to the good pleasure of his will - According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only.

I think that explains it best.

His Commentaries are used for Masters and Doctorate studies in Theo and Divinity.

Acts 13

  45: But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

  46: Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

  47: For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

  48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

  49: And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

  50: But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.

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Bearing in mind the Jews that were dis-agreeing were chosen ones of God.

They Raised persecution against Barn' and Paul.

Why were they not the chosen ones too ?

They become ordained by listening to the Word of God.

The word ordained used here is- Tasso

It can be used for the below descriptions.

to put in order, to station

to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint

to assign (appoint) a thing to one

to appoint, ordain, order

to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority

to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

Did they feel appointed to hear The Word of God ?

Or Did they feel appointed after accepting The Word of God.

It does not mean they were Pre-selected to accept in any sense.

It means they accepted after hearing, and because they accepted they felt now appointed into Christ.

It is rather Long please forgive me so I will touch on your other verses later least it should be too prolonged for reading.

Blessings my Brother.

[book_wirm]

Butterflykisses,

Do you always get so deffensive when someone disagrees with you? I wasn't trying to start a fight, but I thought it fair that answers be given to some of your questions. I do have a few more comments to make, though

Ok... the reason why my argument stands is Jesus' very words:

Mark 16:15

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

and also:

Matthew 28:19-20

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

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Ok...I'm trying to guage what you're saying here, but I just don't see it. I have no disagreement with these verses, that would be ludicrous. But you still did not answer my request. If the gift is offered to everyone, then explain to me in what way that it is offered to those who will never hear the gospel, let alone the name of Jesus. I submit that it is not offered to all.

And you are a tad off on your translation of the word "foreknew" 

foreknow: Greek: proginw