Calvin vs. Arminius

[EricH]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

I think this would be more of a right view, for if you believe everything calvanism says, the point of EVERYTHING

becomes nothing. God is 100% sovereign, but free will must also exist. If all of calvinism is true, then why do we

exist in this world in the first place? God could've just created everything at once, and at the same time thrown

everyone he wanted to into hell, and kept everyone he chose in heaven. Calvanistic views also boil down to:

I'll live however I want. Rape, murder steal, and if God wants me to be saved I will be at some point. Since

I have nothing to do with it, I won't worry about it. Im going where im going.

I won't preach the Gospel, because our preaching of the Gospel has nothing to do with anything. God will save

those whom he will save.

I won't pray. God is in control at all times and my prayers mean nothing because he already "forced'

me to do everything in eternity past when he planned it.

I won't repent of or confess sins because again its God in control of absolutely everything and I don't

have a free will. In fact, I really don't exist at all, because God is in control of everything and every

molecule in my body, I'm just part of his imagination.

I've already been forced to do everything i've ever done and therefore calvanism dictates, that by

my definition at least, I don't really even exist.

The reason we would do things like pray, confess, witness, cease form sin etc., is that God has commanded those things. The logic above seems to be that if God has ordained certain things, we are no longer under any responsibility to obey Him. That does not logically follow

[tdrehfal]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

I think this would be more of a right view, for if you believe everything calvanism says, the point of EVERYTHING

becomes nothing. God is 100% sovereign, but free will must also exist. If all of calvinism is true, then why do we

exist in this world in the first place? God could've just created everything at once, and at the same time thrown

everyone he wanted to into hell, and kept everyone he chose in heaven. Calvanistic views also boil down to:

I'll live however I want. Rape, murder steal, and if God wants me to be saved I will be at some point. Since

I have nothing to do with it, I won't worry about it. Im going where im going.

I won't preach the Gospel, because our preaching of the Gospel has nothing to do with anything. God will save

those whom he will save.

I won't pray. God is in control at all times and my prayers mean nothing because he already "forced'

me to do everything in eternity past when he planned it.

I won't repent of or confess sins because again its God in control of absolutely everything and I don't

have a free will. In fact, I really don't exist at all, because God is in control of everything and every

molecule in my body, I'm just part of his imagination.

I've already been forced to do everything i've ever done and therefore calvanism dictates, that by

my definition at least, I don't really even exist.

The reason we would do things like pray, confess, witness, cease form sin etc., is that God has commanded those things. The logic above seems to be that if God has ordained certain things, we are no longer under any responsibility to obey Him. That does not logically follow

And God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the name of Jesus christ. If calvinism were 100% accurate

I fail to see why He would issue such a command at all. Man's free-will must play a role somewhere in the grand scheme

of things, otherwise we are all really robots or machines, doing what God forces us to do. He wouldn't need to command

anyone since they wouldn't have the will to obey or disobey...

[Guest ncorthopa]

As a methodist this demoniation as a group is arminius however I find it hard to side solely with either side. One interesting topic that is often brought up in sunday school is God's work in our daily lives, how much he interacts, and how much he controls from day to day and from event to event. And I am not sure which side the Calvinist and the arminius would take on that issue. Does God cause bad things to happen for his good? (Calvinist/Arminius) If not bad things does he cause Good things.

David

[Copper Scroll]

Which is why calvanism, and any other form of fatalism/predestination, is so evil and wrong.

I am shocked that the 100% Calvinists are winning this poll. How is it at all compatible with anything we think about love and grace?

[EricH]

Which is why calvanism, and any other form of fatalism/predestination, is so evil and wrong.

I am shocked that the 100% Calvinists are winning this poll. How is it at all compatible with anything we think about love and grace?

Perhaps because you have not allowed the text to define love and grace, rather you are imposing your views of what should constitute love and grace onto God.

[Copper Scroll]

Perhaps because you have not allowed the text to define love and grace, rather you are imposing your views of what should constitute love and grace onto God.

Is the love characterized by the tulip the same sort of love we are supposed to extend to one another?

Edited February 3, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[EricH]

Perhaps because you have not allowed the text to define love and grace, rather you are imposing your views of what should constitute love and grace onto God.

Is the love characterized by the tulip the same sort of love we are supposed to extend to one another?

Are you asking me are we free to do everything that God does?

[Copper Scroll]

Is the love characterized by the tulip the same sort of love we are supposed to extend to one another?

Are you asking me are we free to do everything that God does?

Not really. I'm asking Is the love God has for us (as tulip would characterize it) in any way similar to the love we are supposed to have for each other? If so, how?

Edited February 3, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[EricH]

Is the love characterized by the tulip the same sort of love we are supposed to extend to one another?

Are you asking me are we free to do everything that God does?

Not really. I'm asking Is the love God has for us (as tulip would characterize it) in any way similar to the love we are supposed to have for each other? If so, how?

How would you characterize the Love TULIP says God has for us?

[Copper Scroll]

I'm asking Is the love God has for us (as tulip would characterize it) in any way similar to the love we are supposed to have for each other? If so, how?

How would you characterize the Love TULIP says God has for us?

I don't know. That's what I'm asking you, as someone who supports tulip. I don't recognize the love in tulip. I presume you would say that God loves us. According to tulip, what is God's love and is it in any way like the love we are supposed to have for one another? If so, how?

Edited February 8, 2006 by Copper Scroll