Observer of dreams Posted December 21, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2007 Imagine a basketball turning inside out without its surface breaking. Such things are possible in a fifth dimension of space and time, but why can't we perceive such things in our mind? The answer is because we are not 5th dimensional beings, we are 4. width, length, height, and time. A fifth unnamed dimension can very plausibly exist, as well as a 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and so onth. Let me explain using Mario, a very high brow and intellectual man lol. Mario is a two dimensional being living in a two dimensional world. Mario cannot perceive the third dimension that gives everything volume. Filling a cup for him is impossible just as a basketball turning inside out without breaking its surface is impossible to us. Sure likenesses of the cup can be made out of two dimensions using various shapes, but it is just not a cup, it has no volume at all. Therefore what would happen when another two dimensional buddy tries to break the "fourth wall" and tell him there is a whole other world full of these objects that have mass, and we can turn in a full circle and behold our environment, and things fill other things...well if he were an expert at math he could perceive the third and fourth dimensions as we have with our algebra and calculus. If he were not an expert at math he could not fathom the difference a couple dimensions make. [http://www.physorg.com/news88699794.html] <<<visit this link for more info. I am talking specifically about "[The] proof of the famous Poincar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari21 Posted December 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 140 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,846 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/05/1987 Share Posted December 21, 2007 My brain hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lorax Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 183 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,892 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1985 Share Posted December 22, 2007 My brain hurts. Then, whatever you do, don't click this link. I think I understand what you're saying, observer. We mortals are faced with certain epistemic limitations, and perhaps we will never really "know" that God exists through any avenue other than our faith in Him. Being 4-dimensional is certainly a limitation in the sense we can't step outside ourselves or, say, go back in time. And there are even perceptual shortcomings within these four dimensions. Take the act of observation. Until quantum physics, it was taken for granted that observation was passive, that is, it helped up obtain information about the world without changing what we were observing. Seems obvious enough, right? Enter the double slit experiment. Basically, physicists figured out that they were changing very small particles simply by LOOKING at them. When no one was looking at a particle, it actually behaved like a wave. It only behaved like a particle when there were sensors in place. This brought up a problem: If we humans know the world through observation, but observation changes the world we are observing, then how can we possibly know the world for certain? ...At a quantum level, we can't. We humans will never have a "God's-eye view" of the world, because we are an inextricable part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2007 Grace to you, Kind of puts a new understanding on the limitations that Christ undertook to Save you, doesn't it. The Word say's that He made His dwelling place or abode with and among us. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeilanS Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,763 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/23/1990 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Fascinating stuff comes out of Physics sometimes. I just read a bit on Einstein's idea that gravity is not actually a force, but instead curvature of reality itself, similar to the way you could place a bowling ball on a bed and have smaller objects on the bed roll towards it. Really crazy stuff. I have also had the same thoughts as you lately. I find Atheism to be highly illogical, where as Agnostism makes sense. If you do not believe in a personal God, at the very least you must believe in some cosmic "force" (or God) that designed reality as we know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari21 Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 140 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,846 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/05/1987 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Then, whatever you do, don't click this link. Arrrrrrrgggggh! I clicked it! *Kari slips into a coma* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,170 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,895 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2007 Grace to you, Kind of puts a new understanding on the limitations that Christ undertook to Save you, doesn't it. The Word say's that He made His dwelling place or abode with and among us. Peace, Dave Also tends to show how God know how we turn out on the day we were born. He is not bound by time as we are, so he can see the whole life as a single point which is interesting to me. Eternity really is not for ever....... it's non existant time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheya joie Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2007 Ok, this was the question that popped into my mind while I was reading The Lorax's example of particles behaving one way when the sensors were in place, but behaving a different way when not under observation: If the particles are not being observed, then how do we know they are behaving differently? Trying not to get a brain-hurt like Kari's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2007 I would imagine there would be a smoking gun. I am no physicist, but regardless if a ball with paint on it just sits there it looks like a ball of paint, but if it is rolling, then we see the line of paint that was left by the ball, though we are not observing the ball of paint itself......honestly I have no idea, that is just a shot in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan4257 Posted December 22, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 421 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2007 Ok, this was the question that popped into my mind while I was reading The Lorax's example of particles behaving one way when the sensors were in place, but behaving a different way when not under observation: If the particles are not being observed, then how do we know they are behaving differently? Great question, and so logical. Try this for size: There are two kinds of quantum-theoretical states: the ldquophysical staterdquo determined by a complete observation and the ldquointrinsic staterdquo which comprises the values of the observed as well as the unobserved observables. The future values of all these observables are determined. Causality is therefore valid, though not verifiable. Q.E.D. That last sentence sounds like a verifiable high tech answer when challenged by a skeptic to prove God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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