Lucifer

[Blackthorn]

I posted this elsewhere but wanted to put it up for discussion.

The bible was translated into latin from hebrew and greek in the 5 century. This became known as the Latin Vulgate or just Vulgate. It was the first version to have the Old testament translated from the hebrew tanahk.

The word lucifer only appears once in the english bible. Thats in Isaiah 14:12.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?

Now it appears if you take this one sentence out of context that they are talking about the whole satans fallen angel mythos. This isn't true. If you read it in context. God is talking to the babylonian king nebachudnezzer. Who happens to have the honorific title or nickname of son of dawn. Because he liked gaudy clothes and fine shiny jewlery. Basically he loved bling to put it in modern terms. Louis the 14th was called the sun king for this same reason. God is actually using this title to mock nebachudnezzer. It has nothing to do with the christian devil.

Why is lucifer there though?

Well when the bible was translated into Latin in the 5th century the latin word lucifer was used as the translation of the hebrew words helel ben shahar Which means literally son of dawn. Lucifer literally translates as light bringer. It was also another name for venus the morningstar. The word Lucifer was the translation of the Septuagint Greek heosphoros, which they used in place of helel ben shahar. Which jerome knew when he translated helel ben shahar into lucifer.

When the bible was eventually translated into english the word lucifer was mistakenly left in there instead of being replaced by the proper words. So lucifer is itself a mistranslation.

Later during midevil times (and after dantes inferno and miltons paradise lost) Lucifer became synonomous as a poetic appellation of satan in christian belief and the whole fallen angels mythos took hold.

In the latin bible the word lucifer appears twice. Once in isaiah 14 and once in reference to jesus in 2peter 1:19

2Pe 1:19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

2Pe 1:19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

The original greek word used here was phosphoros which also means light bearer. Which jerome also translated into its latin equivalent lucifer.

What is everyones take on this and how is believing in lucifer as a fallen angel proper doctrine when it has no biblical support?

[getat151]

makes sense to me........as far as lucifer referring to nebacunezzar.....so that would mean that lucifer is not satan ......correct?

[Blackthorn]

makes sense to me........as far as lucifer referring to nebacunezzar.....so that would mean that lucifer is not satan ......correct?

Pretty much

Edited December 28, 2007 by Blackthorn

[Blackthorn]

double post...

Edited December 28, 2007 by Blackthorn

[OneLight]

It appears that Lucifer is the name for both the king of Babylon and Satan. I found this meaning displayed below at this site www.blueletterbible.org.

Lucifer = "light-bearer"

1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer

a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)

2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

OneLight

[patricia1]

Lucifer was the name of the angel The Lord God created, God loved, Lucifers talents were great. His name was changed just as Sauls name to paul. He was not Lucifer anymore. The Angel who bears false light.

I personally belive that the enemy can be anyone he wants, depending on who he works through...of course there needs to be a submissiveness to allow him to work.

his wounding of the nations came about when he introduced sin to human nature through ourr first parents and Gods' friends Adam and Eve.

Look at whats going on with the middle east...and all because a woman wanted a child, it was birthed through her maid servant. What sins occurred at that time...besides lack of faith..we had envy..covetousness..betrayal, hate....

[Blackthorn]

It appears that Lucifer is the name for both the king of Babylon and Satan. I found this meaning displayed below at this site www.blueletterbible.org.

Lucifer = "light-bearer"

1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer

a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)

2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

OneLight

where in the bible is the name lucifer used for satan and not the king of babylon?

[Blackthorn]

Lucifer was the name of the angel The Lord God created, God loved, Lucifers talents were great. His name was changed just as Sauls name to paul. He was not Lucifer anymore. The Angel who bears false light.

Where in the bible does it state any of this?

I personally belive that the enemy can be anyone he wants, depending on who he works through...of course there needs to be a submissiveness to allow him to work.

Ok I understand that but just because satan may have worked through the babylonian king does not mean that his name is lucifer. It does not mean that lucifer is a fallen angel. Please point me to any biblical text that states lucifer is anything or anyone but nebachudnezzer.

The belief in Lucifer and him being a fallen angel is not biblically founded or supported. This doesn't mean you can't believe it. Believe what you want but it doesn't change that fact,

[OneLight]

It appears that Lucifer is the name for both the king of Babylon and Satan. I found this meaning displayed below at this site www.blueletterbible.org.

Lucifer = "light-bearer"

1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer

a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)

2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

OneLight

where in the bible is the name lucifer used for satan and not the king of babylon?

It is the Hebrew definition of the word Lucifer. Check the link I left. May I suggest that you consider what the word meant when it was written and also the translation of the words from Hebrew up to English. Looking for the words original meaning shines a new light on the word all together.

OneLight

[patricia1]

Well what made him bright!!! Do you not think he became dull after his fall in Is. 14:12 First I would like to say that the hebrew for lightbearer as spoken above by one light I believe comes also from the hebrew word HEYKAL which comes from YAKOWL..

Yakowl means to have power, moral inability. It is also used in Joshua 6:10. Heykal actuall meanns palace, a acommodating place, temple and is also used in connection to Gods heavenly temple as well as the temple in Jerusalem. So maybe try translating it to the palace of the king of babylon or king ahabs palace where it is also used.

That is why we only see the name once used..

Satan means opponent...adversary and that is what he became, and occurred in the heavenlies...adversary of God as well of the other Angels, the world and nations including Babylon as written in revelations.

Our names that we have are not the same Jesus calls us in heaven.Now I know you are a person who seeks out things and if I were to give all the scriptures you ask for that will be too easy for you..Lol and work for me. I will help you a long though if you like ... Love your sister in Christ patricia1