Bush, Cheney subject to arrest?

[RustyAngeL]

objectively, why be so frustrated?

foregoing any opinion on the issue, it is a wonderful example of remembering the basics of our constitution.

'we, the people . . .' on the bright side, there are those in vermont who remember who is really in charge of the government.

I'm speaking as a Christian here. Biblically, we are to support our leaders, as they are appointed by God, and not try to slap them in jail on trumped up "war crimes" charges.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally a voice of reason and sanity.

[kari21]

The people are to "cooperate" with their leaders, not bow to them revering them because "they are appointed by God". This is because the people EMPLOY the government leaders.

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority."

Romans 13:1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

[buckthesystem]

objectively, why be so frustrated?

foregoing any opinion on the issue, it is a wonderful example of remembering the basics of our constitution.

'we, the people . . .' on the bright side, there are those in vermont who remember who is really in charge of the government.

I'm speaking as a Christian here. Biblically, we are to support our leaders, as they are appointed by God, and not try to slap them in jail on trumped up "war crimes" charges.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally a voice of reason and sanity.

I hope you are referring to "Bush being charged with war crimes" and not the strange and totally erroneous idea that Bush should never be held to account for anything because "he was appointed by God", because although to charge him with war crimes may not be appropriate he certainly is guilty of violating the constitution.

The people are to "cooperate" with their leaders, not bow to them revering them because "they are appointed by God". This is because the people EMPLOY the government leaders.

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority."

Romans 13:1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

The people are to "cooperate" with their leaders, not bow to them revering them because "they are appointed by God". This is because the people EMPLOY the government leaders.

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority."

Romans 13:1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

What you don't seem to understand is that the government is not in authority OVER us....they work FOR us. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be the authority.

Thank you KatyAnn. Very well put!

Kari you have badly misread this. God NEVER did, and NEVER WOULD, ordain any mortal man over any other. Paul meant that God had ordained governments and rulers to maintain public order and act for the general welfare of society. In principle then, he is talking of the OFFICE of government - not the/a person/people. In truth it was a very carefully worded chapter because the Roman "authorities" were watching like hawks to see if the Christians were preaching resistance to the Roman "rulers". Elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Hosea 8.4) it is clear that the personalities and specific powers of government are not ordained by God at all. So whilst God might have created the OFFICE of government he does not personally approve of or condone every encumbent in that office. Thus to draw the link, as some weak-minded Christians do, that GW Bush has been essentially "elected by God" and that it is unChristian to criticise or oppose him, is rubbish. And the Bible is also clear that where a command of government goes against a command of God Christians are duty-bound to refuse to obey it and to suffer the consequences, even execution, rather than conpromise their principles for the sake of peace and tolerance.

So in conclusion, with the PEOPLE being the authority, any politician who goes against the will of the people (the constitution to put it simply) can expect to "bring judgement on themselves".

[kari21]

I'm not saying that earthly authorities are to take the place of God. But I do believe that God indeed puts all leaders in power all over the world to serve his purposes. I also believe that we are to give them the respect they deserve for being God ordained.

I mean, my head will explode if Hillary gets elected President, but I will give her the respect she is entitled to as our leader.

[kari21]

I'm not saying that earthly authorities are to take the place of God. But I do believe that God indeed puts all leaders in power all over the world to serve his purposes. I also believe that we are to give them the respect they deserve for being God ordained.

I mean, my head will explode if Hillary gets elected President, but I will give her the respect she is entitled to as our leader.

Would this apply to Hitler if you were living in Nazi Germany?

If I lived during that time, and I was German, I would probably have been loyal to him as the leader of the nation.

Now let me ask you a question:

Do you think Hitler was used by God to bring about the nation of Israel?

[kari21]

I'm not saying that earthly authorities are to take the place of God. But I do believe that God indeed puts all leaders in power all over the world to serve his purposes. I also believe that we are to give them the respect they deserve for being God ordained.

I mean, my head will explode if Hillary gets elected President, but I will give her the respect she is entitled to as our leader.

Would this apply to Hitler if you were living in Nazi Germany?

If I lived during that time, and I was German, I would probably have been loyal to him as the leader of the nation.

Now let me ask you a question:

Do you think Hitler was used by God to bring about the nation of Israel?

The citizens being loyal to him helped in killing 16 million people.

No I don't. The Nation of Israel was already in the works when Hitler came to power. Settlers were already going to Israel and the Balfour agreement had already been made.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0311e.asp

The average German citizen was loyal for the very same reasons that Americans were loyal to Roosevelt, or the Italians to Mussolini, the British to the king, and the Japanese to the Emperor. In wartime you support your country and the leaders of your country. Plain and simple.

The average German was unaware of all the atrocities that Hitler and his gang were doing.

And it was the holocaust that pushed world opinion forward in giving the Jewish people a home and safe haven.

Churchill's White Paper of 1922 says that a totally Jewish state was not the intention of the Balfour agreement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_White_Paper%2C_1922

[OneLight]

On the far left are those with the same thought as the group in Brattleboro, VT, and on the far right are those who support Bush 100%. The truth will be found somewhere in the middle.

The article did not mention "war crimes", it did say this:

The measure asks: "Shall the Selectboard instruct the Town Attorney to draft indictments against President Bush and Vice President Cheney for crimes against our Constitution, and publish said indictment for consideration by other municipalities?

Guess you missed this part of it:

President Bush may soon have a new reason to avoid left-leaning Vermont: In one town, activists want him subject to arrest for war crimes.

Yup ... I did ... sorry.

We all, like it or not, are told to submit ourselves to our government. This does not tell us that we have to agree with them, but abide by the laws set down to us. We may not like those in power, but were are to submit, as a slave does to their master. Nothing is said that we have to agree with them. Remember, God is in control, even if we can not see His hand in motion.

OneLight

[The Lorax]

I'm speaking as a Christian here. Biblically, we are to support our leaders, as they are appointed by God, and not try to slap them in jail on trumped up "war crimes" charges.

No.

You are advocating blind obedience. That is undemocratic. That is authoritarian. That is fascist. That is mindless.

And why did you put quote marks around war crimes? You appear to be in some state of denial.

What you don't seem to understand is that the government is not in authority OVER us....they work FOR us. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be the authority.

Thank you. This thread had me worried.

[kari21]

I'm speaking as a Christian here. Biblically, we are to support our leaders, as they are appointed by God, and not try to slap them in jail on trumped up "war crimes" charges.

No.

You are advocating blind obedience. That is undemocratic. That is authoritarian. That is fascist. That is mindless.

And why did you put quote marks around war crimes? You appear to be in some state of denial.

What you don't seem to understand is that the government is not in authority OVER us....they work FOR us. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be the authority.

Thank you. This thread had me worried.

Big enough "no" there?

What am I, some sort of bad puppy that needs scolding? And just where did I advocate "blind" obedience. Learn some tact, jerk.

[The Lorax]

If I could make it any bigger I would.

Yours,

A Tactless Freedom-Loving Jerk

...

Happy New Year Everybody!