Please tell me... When is the Sabbath?

[Vickilynn]

Vickilynn, you seem to be quoting this as though it is perhaps authoritive. If you are, would you please clarify how this fits within what I am understanding you believe with regard to shabat. Perhaps I have misunderstood your belief(s).

Shalom Richard,

Yes, it seems that you have indeed misunderstood my beliefs and posted based on faulty assumptions.

8. Shabbat is a delight

[Guest Biblicist]

Ok, I need to follow this line of reasoning. Not trying to be argumenative, just trying to understand.

The Sabbath, according to some, is Saturday, no acceptions. Forget the fact that Jesus Christ rose on the FIRST day of the week and some celebrate His Resurrection on Sunday, the first day of the week, instead of the last day of the week.

And according to the 10 commandments we are to keep the Sabbath Holy. or..."For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10) Therefore, if by not worshiping on Saturday, instead of Sunday, I am breaking the commandment every week and am just as guilty if I were to murder, covet, steal, worship idols...ad nauseum from the OT. And thus, I need to repent of worshiping Christ with other believers every single Sunday that I attend church and "work" on a Saturday?

Furthermore, if I, or someone, has a job that requires work on Saturday I am also guilty of breaking the "whole law" and thus must repent for doing my job, keeping my job and providing for my family?

Is that correct?

[Vickilynn]

Ok, I need to follow this line of reasoning. Not trying to be argumenative, just trying to understand.

Shalom Bib,

You didn't say to whom you were asking, so I'll chime in. Forgive me if I repeat some things, I do so for clarity.

The Sabbath, according to some, is Saturday, no acceptions.

The Sabbath, according to the Scriptures, is the 7th day. That has never changed since Creation:

Genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And(B) on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

G-d made the DAY holy and blessed it. So it, remains the Sabbath.

Forget the fact that Jesus Christ rose on the FIRST day of the week and some celebrate His Resurrection on Sunday, the first day of the week, instead of the last day of the week.

One does not negate the other. Observing the Sabbath on the 7th day in no way dishonors the First Day of the week when Yeshua rose. We celebrate this day and HIM on Sundays. They do not interfere with one another.

And according to the 10 commandments we are to keep the Sabbath Holy. or..."For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10) Therefore, if by not worshiping on Saturday, instead of Sunday, I am breaking the commandment every week and am just as guilty if I were to murder, covet, steal, worship idols...ad nauseum from the OT. And thus, I need to repent of worshiping Christ with other believers every single Sunday that I attend church and "work" on a Saturday?

No. We do NOT honor the Sabbath under the Law, but by conviction and choice, seeing that it was instituted at Creation and not under the Mosaic Law. And so we observe under the Word and not the Law. There is nothing wrong with gathering for church on Sunday and nothing to be repented of.

Furthermore, if I, or someone, has a job that requires work on Saturday I am also guilty of breaking the "whole law" and thus must repent for doing my job, keeping my job and providing for my family?

No, once again, we are not under the Law, so we are not breaking the Law with ramifications as before the Messiah came. If we keep the Sabbath, we do so out of the Law of Love, honoring G-d, His Word, His Plan, His Messiah, NOT one of Mosaic Law with penalty for not keeping it. Keeping the Sabbath is a rich, wonderful, worshipful time and G-d created it and set it aside and and declared it a day of rest. It is a SPIRITUAL as well as physical rest. It is not LAW that we do this, but a desire to walk in the Word and honor G-d and glorify Jesus, Who IS our Sabbath rest. So, we do this IN HIM.

Does that make my POV clearer?

[Vickilynn]

Not every Messianic Jew believes as Vickilynn does.

Shalom JemDude,

Uhhh, did you see me say ANYPLACE that I speak for anyone but myself? Nope. This is not a Messianic Jewish issue, it is a Bible issue.

However, there ARE many many Messianic Jews that hold the same POV as I do, that it is NOT under the Law that we observe Sabbath and it is not linked in any way, shape or form to salvation. In fact, I can post many websites that state that.

I don't speak for all Messianic Jews any more than you speak for ALL SDAs.

BTW, I know plenty of SDAs that do not believe as you do

[ladygirl21]

I believe the Sabbath day was made for man. Not man for the Sabbath therefore the Sabbath day is a day you set aside for just God and you. No work, no food, no nothing. The Sabbath day is just for you and God. I believe we just go to church for fellowship with other christians and to hear a word but I don't believe that is of the Sabbath day. For the Sabbath day should be you and God. For instance, I use to dress up and set the table with candles and listen to gospel music while spending time talking and worshiping my Lord. I wrote him a poem and gave him my whole day. I didn't do any house chores, I unplugged the phones. I had no destractioms. You should read the book of Matthew when Jesus talks to the Pharisees about the Sabbath day for there you will see that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. You are suppose to take one day from work to spend it alone with your Lord and savior.

[Guest Biblicist]

Ok, I need to follow this line of reasoning. Not trying to be argumenative, just trying to understand.

The Sabbath, according to some, is Saturday, no acceptions. Forget the fact that Jesus Christ rose on the FIRST day of the week and some celebrate His Resurrection on Sunday, the first day of the week, instead of the last day of the week.

And according to the 10 commandments we are to keep the Sabbath Holy. or..."For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10) Therefore, if by not worshiping on Saturday, instead of Sunday, I am breaking the commandment every week and am just as guilty if I were to murder, covet, steal, worship idols...ad nauseum from the OT. And thus, I need to repent of worshiping Christ with other believers every single Sunday that I attend church and "work" on a Saturday?

Furthermore, if I, or someone, has a job that requires work on Saturday I am also guilty of breaking the "whole law" and thus must repent for doing my job, keeping my job and providing for my family?

Is that correct?

That is mostly correct. Breaking the Sabbath is just as bad as stealing, murdering, and breaking the other commandments. That's why the issue is important to God. Now there are people who do work of necessity such as police, hospitals, firefighters, etc. They are allowed to work on Sabbath. (Even in this case, it is best that they have at least every other Sabbath off so that they don't miss out on fellowship). But if you work at a job that is not a work of necessity, then that person must not work on Sabbath.

In some cases, a person can talk to their superior and arrange to have the Sabbath day off. Other people are forced to find another job that doesn't require work on Sabbath. Some have found better jobs! Offering to work on Sundays sometimes helps. I don't know about other groups, but in the Adventist Church, they will provide a letter to give to an employer if need be.

If a person has died not knowing about the Sabbath, I do not think that God will penalize that person. He will only hold us accountable for the knowledge that we know.

A person can worship on any day of the week in addition to on Sabbath, but they must not make it a substitute for Sabbath observance.

I hope that I didn't appear hostile. Just answering your question.

That's the answer I expected from you. Thanks for the clairification.

[Guest Biblicist]

Ok, I need to follow this line of reasoning. Not trying to be argumenative, just trying to understand.

Shalom Bib,

You didn't say to whom you were asking, so I'll chime in. Forgive me if I repeat some things, I do so for clarity.

The Sabbath, according to some, is Saturday, no acceptions.

The Sabbath, according to the Scriptures, is the 7th day. That has never changed since Creation:

Genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And(B) on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

G-d made the DAY holy and blessed it. So it, remains the Sabbath.

Forget the fact that Jesus Christ rose on the FIRST day of the week and some celebrate His Resurrection on Sunday, the first day of the week, instead of the last day of the week.

One does not negate the other. Observing the Sabbath on the 7th day in no way dishonors the First Day of the week when Yeshua rose. We celebrate this day and HIM on Sundays. They do not interfere with one another.

And according to the 10 commandments we are to keep the Sabbath Holy. or..."For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10) Therefore, if by not worshiping on Saturday, instead of Sunday, I am breaking the commandment every week and am just as guilty if I were to murder, covet, steal, worship idols...ad nauseum from the OT. And thus, I need to repent of worshiping Christ with other believers every single Sunday that I attend church and "work" on a Saturday?

No. We do NOT honor the Sabbath under the Law, but by conviction and choice, seeing that it was instituted at Creation and not under the Mosaic Law. And so we observe under the Word and not the Law. There is nothing wrong with gathering for church on Sunday and nothing to be repented of.

Furthermore, if I, or someone, has a job that requires work on Saturday I am also guilty of breaking the "whole law" and thus must repent for doing my job, keeping my job and providing for my family?

No, once again, we are not under the Law, so we are not breaking the Law with ramifications as before the Messiah came. If we keep the Sabbath, we do so out of the Law of Love, honoring G-d, His Word, His Plan, His Messiah, NOT one of Mosaic Law with penalty for not keeping it. Keeping the Sabbath is a rich, wonderful, worshipful time and G-d created it and set it aside and and declared it a day of rest. It is a SPIRITUAL as well as physical rest. It is not LAW that we do this, but a desire to walk in the Word and honor G-d and glorify Jesus, Who IS our Sabbath rest. So, we do this IN HIM.

Does that make my POV clearer?

That is exactly what I hoped you would say. Thank you!

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Jemdude.

I would agree that a person who accepts Christ would obey His commandments out of love and not out of fear.

Yes, His teachings. But not under the Law since we are not under the Law anymore. The Law never saved anyone.

Therefore, a person who truly loves Jesus and is aware of the Sabbath will want to keep in in addition to the other commandments.

Not true. If their heart is led to, great. If not, then they are no less of a Christian than a Sabbath-keeper.

I know that this is not a Messianic issue, but for some reason, you and some of the others here seem to want to make this an Adventist issue.

So this is tit-for-tat??? Payback? Revenge? Is that very Scriptural? No!

It is an issue that SDA's preach as salvation issues. You are preaching SDA doctrine when you link Sabbath observance with salvation. I have NEVER said that Sabbath is linked with salvation.

The Sabbath is NOT specifically and Adventist or Messianic Jewish (or any other denominational) issue.

Then why did you post about Messianics? That is hypocritical of you JemDude, if you admit it's not a Messianic issue, yet you post what you did. Hmmmmm.

Awww, c'mon JemDude! You just can't post SDA websites. Since you say it's not an SDA issue, simply post something else that supports your position Biblically! Why not just use the Bible?

[Vickilynn]

You are teaching that grace is a licence to sin when you say that the Sabbath doesn't have to be kept.

Shalom JemDude,

Actually, that's not true. Grace is not a license to sin, ever. I have refuted that false allegation every time you throw it at me.

The problem is YOU call not keeping the Sabbath a sin, when the Bible does not. That is your SDA doctrine. It's not Scriptural.

The Sabbath being a requirement is NOT SDA specific.

It IS true of the SDA doctrine though and you ARE an SDA.

It is a common teaching in many Sabbath keeping groups INCLUDING that Messianic Jewish site I posted, that represents many Messianic Jews and Messianic Jewish groups.

No, that's not true. What I posted is from a Messianic site and they teach AGAINST the false doctrine that keeping Sabbath is linked to salvation. They represent more of the Messianic viewpoint than the ones you are talking about. Regardless, it's like denominations, they all don't agree. It matters what G-d says in His Word, not what man's doctrine says.

That is why I am refuting your SDA doctrine, it is not Scriptural.

The Bible does not say that not keeping the Sabbath is a SIN. Unless you can prove that it is a sin, Scripturally, it is your opinion only.

[Vickilynn]

You are teaching that grace is a licence to sin when you say that the Sabbath doesn't have to be kept.

Shalom JemDude,

Actually, that's not true. Grace is not a license to sin, ever. I have refuted that false allegation every time you throw it at me.

The problem is YOU call not keeping the Sabbath a sin, when the Bible does not. That is your SDA doctrine. It's not Scriptural.

The Sabbath being a requirement is NOT SDA specific.

It IS true of the SDA doctrine though and you ARE an SDA.

It is a common teaching in many Sabbath keeping groups INCLUDING that Messianic Jewish site I posted, that represents many Messianic Jews and Messianic Jewish groups.

No, that's not true. What I posted is from a Messianic site and they teach AGAINST the false doctrine that keeping Sabbath is linked to salvation. They represent more of the Messianic viewpoint than the ones you are talking about. Regardless, it's like denominations, they all don't agree. It matters what G-d says in His Word, not what man's doctrine says.

That is why I am refuting your SDA doctrine, it is not Scriptural.

The Bible does not say that not keeping the Sabbath is a SIN. Unless you can prove that it is a sin, Scripturally, it is your opinion only.

I have shown scripture but you choose to ignore it. You also choose to ignore the fact that the Sabbath is one of the commandments Jesus included when he says to keep the commandments. The Sabbath has been a requirement for thousands of years and, as you already know, precedes the old covenant. If that has changed, then I think that the burden of proof is on you to prove that the Sabbath is no longer a requirement. It is human reasoning to assume that just because the Sabbath was not mentioned in the ex-adventist list of NT commands, that it is no longer valid. Jesus did address the Sabbath when He said that He is Lord of the Sabbath.

I also believe that the real reason why the Adventist article on the subject was removed is because you were unable to refute it. Here is the link to the TOS: link. Where does it "plainly say not to post SDA websites"? Absolutely NO WHERE! And since most Sabbath keeping groups have the same or very similar views on the Sabbath, the source of where the information is coming from is irreverent.

This is not the first time I've encountered this tactic. One time, on another message board, I was having a debate with someone who believed that time has been lost and claimed that we do not know if the Sabbath kept today is on the same day as the Sabbath in ancient times. I quoted an excellent point from Herbert W. Armstrong that clearly showed how this could not be, and which many Sabbath keeping groups would agree with. I ended up getting moderated just because the quote came from Armstrong and accused me of promoting "armstrongism". The actual point being made was not addressed at all.

I think you, the mods, and the others here need to remember the rule of addressing the issue and not the person. The Sabbath issue being a requirement is NOT Adventist specific but is a common teaching among many Sabbath keeping groups in addition to being a Bible teaching. Very few Sabbath keeping groups keep the Sabbath "just to be different" or for personal preference.

Shalom JemDude,

Sour grapes.

Uh, if you have an issue with the MODS, you are to contact them privately, not blast them in a thread.