time, times, half a time

[Guest man]

I do know that people have been able to calculate the exact date Jesus was crucified.

And that date is.....?

[nebula]

Argh - I don't recall off the top of my head.

If I remember, when I have more time (which I don't right now), I will see if I can do a search for this . . . but I can't promise I will find it.

Unless someone else here knows what I'm talking about and can help me out?

[Richard_yaash]

Although I don't know if it is possible to "predict" the future by calculating a date through what is written in prophecy

Many have tried. I have not as of yet met someone who could or did.

I do know that people have been able to take the words in Daniel (I forget the chapter, but the passage deals with "the prince being cut off from the people" - a prophecy referring to Jesus' death) have been able to calculate the exact date Jesus was crucified.

An obvious reference to Daniel 9. I have seen many 'calculated' dates, I have investigated and attempted to 'validate' these things independently. I have used some high quality 'astronomical' software in attempting to do as much from an astronomical perspective. Truth is, with all the knowledge and data that we have, we can not pinpoint these things. Yes, I am sure you have seen as much. I am sure that what was presented may have even been 'convincing'. However, we are left with a 'window' in duration of several years. At best, we might possibly narrow that window to within one year. Further, we would need to confirm the 'date of origin' that they used in these 'calculations'. When all this has been done, we would need to further validate it from another source, such as astronomically.

It is all too easy to 'pick' a date such as 34CE and work backwards in order to make a presentation that has an appearance of being truth.

No offense intended,

Richard

[Richard_yaash]

may i sum up your post as agreeing that the 'time' referred to may not conclusively mean one year?

Now that would indeed be dangerous nor would I allow such. I sense another of my rather overly wordy replies so please ***bear*** with me.

i am aware of it being the current understanding of the verse, of course.

In the above, I emphasized the word "bear". So let's stop and consider this simple and rather common english word for a moment.

If I simply say to you "bear", what do I mean? Could you possibly know the manner in which I had intended it without context?

Am I using it a noun, a verb, an adjective or even adverbially? Does it refer to something which: supports, giving birth, natural growth as in the fruit of a tree, one's conduct or the manner in which they carry themselves, suffering, giving testimony, a resemblance, to accept as an obligation, to possess as a quality, course of direction, orientation, a wild animal, etc., etc..

Now, if we add a 'qualifier' such as a preposition, "bear" can take on even further meaning as in my opening statement "bear with": to be patient/tolerant/put up with. We could also add such as: bear on, bear out, bear up, bear down and even bear-like. In Ivrit, bearlike could be written such as kedob. However, it is more correctly/properly "as a bear/like a bear". Hopefully though, you will see what I mean and my point will remain intact. In transliteration I would usually write such as ke-dob, this allows the person reading to see the that dob (bear) has been modified by the 'qualifier' ke- in so that it no longer simply means 'bear', but rather 'as a bear' (cf 2 Sam 17:8; Isa 59:11; Hos 13:8).

Afterall, in my opening statement I am certainly not asking you to "bear" a child with me <raises eyebrow>. Thus, as I am sure you already know, context is important. In English, and perhaps moreso in Ivrit. Further, 'modifying/qualifying' words/prefixes/suffixes also need to be understood and taken into full account.

Do not worry about having a full/complete/in depth understanding of everything at this point. For that will merely bog you down. Simply do your best and strive to become 'authentic'. For myself, in school, I struggled terribly with English. I have since cultivated my own style of writing and through use and the desire have come to understand, to some degree, the English language. I would still probably struggle in school though <chuckle>.

unfortunately, i am one that does not just stop at a meaning that i like and not consider further revelation.

Fully understood. However, I must offer you a word of caution to be ***very*** careful until you have attained the necessary knowledge. The reason(s) I caution you in this, is that I have seen many 'cults' (popular though now quite correct definition), as well as many others, pick and choose a 'definition' of their own choosing and attempt to insert it anyplace they wish as though they are interchangable without regard for context/modifiers/qualifiers. I actually witnessed one sadly enough make 'evil for good' and 'good for evil'. I have also witnessed many attempt use the words which occur after the colon in Strong's as 'definitions'. That which occurs *after* the colon are the words that were used in translation which reflect qualifiers/modifiers. Thus, we can not use them 'interchangably' as I have seen what feels like far too many do.

I do not know where or what level you are at in study/knowledge. That being said, forgive me if I should speak of things that are already 'elementary' unto you. I do not know what 'tools' you have at your disposal so I will simply share a little of what I have seen and the inherent dangers therein:

In most cases, those who fall into this error are using a Strong's Concordance. Now, I am *not* denigrating Strong's in any way/shape/form. Strong's is a good 'tool', it is inexpensive, easy to use and requires no further knowledge. However, it is a very basic 'tool'. We could liken it to everyone's favourite book that they first learned to read from. Such as "See Spot Run" or whatever other title was our favourite in grade school. Is such as "See Spot Run" a bad/poor 'tool'? No! It is/was a very valuable tool for through such we began to learn to read. Now however, we have/are moving on beyond the 'grade school' level and we need to learn/cultivate the ability to process a greater depth/wealth/level of understanding than was required in grade school.

From what I perceive in you, if you have not already done so, ***now*** is the time to move on from the 'elementary' things and move up to at least an 'intermediate level' of tools. Such as, at the very least obtaining a good interlinear and perhaps a BDB (Brown, Driver, Briggs). From there, perhaps a TaNaKh or other Hebrew Manuscript and a more advanced Lexicon. The BDB is coded with Strong's numbers and therefore a very good place to start, the more advanced Lexicon's require some familiarity with/in Hebrew. Without some familiarity, they would be overly burdensome to attempt to use. Don't forget some good Greek resources as well. Yes, there are e-versions of such and while a good tool, for I myself also used them for a time, they are no substitute for a 'hardcopy'. Of the e-versions that I have seen/run across, while they are good, they are not as good as the hardcopy material. I still use e-versions/software though admittedly not very much, most of my study/reading/reference work is from/in hardcopy form.

To get back to "mo`ed": Before you make any conclusions I would highly recommend that if you do not already own such, obtaining at least some intermediate level 'tools' and examine each and every occurence of "mo`ed" for yourself. Remember that mo`ed is 'appointed/appointment' related. However, that is not all, for it is related to a season/time/place/sign/feast. It is always related to something which has been set/appointed. It is not particularly a set *amount* of time, but it is something which has been fixed. Context is extremely important. Perhaps thus is why the translators of one particular version of the TaNaKh rendered Daniel 12:7 as "period/periods".

Some of those which have been 'appointed/set/fixed' occur more than once a year, some three times, others yearly. One even comes to mind that is within the context of every seven years (cf Deut 31:10). However, they are each an appointed/set time/place.

With regard to your conclusions: I would strongly encourage you to write out your 'findings/conclusions' and place them before your peers for scrutiny/evaluation/questioning and even to be 'picked-apart'. There is no shame nor fear in such. These are, though they may be painful at the time, exceedingly good things. This forces each of us to examine our findings/conclusions in greater detail and to a greater depth. The one who is the most outspoken oftentimes is the most beneficial to us. Allow me to clarify here: I am referring to *discussion*, not to arguments or "I am Right" competitions. No one wins in an argument/'I am Right' scenario.

I fondly remember a scientist (amoung many others) friend of mine, we enjoyed some really in depth multifaceted discussion/friendly debate upon many topics. In some cases, I was unable to fully support/demonstrate/prove something which I had presented. The result being that I had to concede. OTOH: My friend also would at times admit that while I could not fully support whatever it was that I had presented beyond all doubt, he could not fully disprove that presented. The inverse also occurred many times amoung us. Another instance, and I have no idea to this day how we ended up there, we had a long discussion/friendly debate with regard to 'alga/algae/spores/fungi/fungus'. Our results again were inconclusive, however, even though we at times reached an impass in which things were inconclusive, we both/all learned a great deal from one another. And yes, there were times when that presented held up under scrutiny, but these were not nearly as much fun as those which ended inconclusively. It was the earnest/genuine discourse in which integrity was ever present that was/is the joy. And so I reiterate, there is no shame nor fear in being wrong. It is not the results in my opinion that count, it is not being right nor wrong. It is the ability to hold open/honest/genuine discourse. It is through such that in my opinion, we might cease to flee from ourselves and confront/embrace ourselves as authentic individuals.

Since I am in a rather 'sharing' mood and some of this is perhaps apropos with the current line of thought/discussion. I do hope you will not mind should I share a little more here:

As a young Christian, I was a Pastor's worst nightmare come true. I can only smile and at the same time have my eyes well up in sorrow at the remembering of it. It was not that I was mean/cruel/disrespectful or anything like that. I was a rather inquisitive one, not unlike your "unfortunately" statement above. I studied everything, I compared everything unto the Scriptures, I sought 'aletheia' (truth) with my whole being. I poured everything into it. I attended Sunday School, Men's Bible study, studied concurrently under the guidance of three different Pastors of three different denominations, went to retreats, seminars as well as much else. I spent more time in the Scriptures than I did at anything else in life, including work. This continued to remain true in my life until the death of my wife.

To my Pastor (home church), my inquiries/questions must have seemed endless. I do know, that while I may have been his worst nightmare, he was also thankful for the 'fire' within me.

I remember a time as a youth in the faith when an issue came up within the men's study group. I studied for all I was worth. However, when the time came, I had missed one little verse, a keystone if you will. The result, was very poor judgment/words/action upon my part with the man who was kind enough to disciple me. It was that very night, I returned to study and there it was, the keystone. The 'arch' I had been building totally collapsed for the want of that keystone. I spent a long time in the depth of sorrow over my actions and immediately went to my brother whom I had offended to seek his forgiveness. He was indeed, a better man than I. It was a good lesson though, one that I shall never forget and have noticed that it still comes through at times in things that I share. It is one to remember and be ever mindful of as we delve into a deeper level of study.

I remember as a father, receiving correction from my young daughter. After listening to her with an open heart and mind, I had to concede that this young girl was correct and that I would do well to pay heed. Her 'correction' was of such value and quality, that I let her off the hook for the trouble she was in. The warmth of the smile that comes with the memory of this is indeed pleasant. As a husband, in my studies I had misread something and thus 'tainted' the line of thought. I submitted my thoughts/study/conclusion to my wife, as that was our way. She was kind and gracious enough to bring the error to my attention and thus utterly wipe out about 12 hours worth of writing. I had to return to the beginning and start afresh. I shall ever be thankful for it though. The joy, the laughter, the smile, and yes, even the sorrow that has come with this memory is beyond my ability with words to express, nor would I wish to cheapen it with mere common words.

My point here being: Let us be open and willing to receive correction from whereever it may come.

We each have the opportunity to enjoy and learn from one another. We need each other, together we form a symbiotic relationship. That is, it is mutually beneficial for each of us to share and more importantly, listen to one another. If we can truly learn to listen and be open, to maintian an open mind and an open heart, there is no end to the blessings which accompany such.

To sum up my ramblings here: The point is, do not be afraid to be shown to be in error. For that is the nature of learning, sometimes our most valuable learning experiences are from our errors. Yes, I do realize this has all been said many many times before.

we don't want to forget that 'the book was sealed up until the time of the end'.

It is probably nothing and you are probably already aware of this, however I do want to clarify that "mo'ed" does not occur within the verse you quote above. The phrase you quote is: setumim va-khatumim ha-devarim **`ad_`et qets**. Until_time end.

As for mo`ed, I shall look forward to hearing your personal conclusions in further discourse. IMO: It very likely will end as inconclusive.

i hope that more enlightenment comes the way of those of us who are interested.

May it never cease, however please take to heart my word of caution for it is sincere and in earnest. I would not wish to see you stumble as I have so many when they have appoached the precipice.

And so here it is, not only have I been overly wordy, this one qualifies as being *exceedingly* wordy <chuckle>. Were you able to *bear* with me <grin>?

In His love,

Richard

[nebula]

OK, I did a little searching. I don't know if this is the best source or explanation of what I was referring to, but at least you will get the idea. If any of you wish to research more, at least you will have a basis to play with.

Daniel's Prophecy Foretells Date of Crucifixion

Click here

[Guest man]

OK, I did a little searching. I don't know if this is the best source or explanation of what I was referring to, but at least you will get the idea. If any of you wish to research more, at least you will have a basis to play with.

Daniel's Prophecy Foretells Date of Crucifixion

Click here

Thanks.

[Richard_yaash]

OK, I did a little searching. I don't know if this is the best source or explanation of what I was referring to, but at least you will get the idea.

Hi Nebula,

Thank you for searching that out, posting and sharing that. I had read Mr. Pratts work in years past and I do remember reading that particular page what now seems like long ago (definitely pre Dec 03). I will admit, as far as websites are concerned, it is one of the better pages that I remember reading upon the subject. I have also researched Isaac Newton's work upon the subject. I remember in doing the necessary calculations, finding it almost mind boggling to imagine Isaac Newton carrying out those same calculations longhand. The study of calender systems/cylindrics/calendrics was a hobby of mine.

Another interest was using mathmatics and going through both the Bible as well as some of the extra-Biblical books as a means of validating certain things. I remember working with one 'cult' which had elevated one such book and built a lot of doctrine upon that which was contained within it. By using math in this manner, I was able to show by the internal inconsistencies as well as the inconsistencies in comparison with both other extra-Biblical books and the Bible how unreliable this 'book' was. They were very interesting studies and findings.

Another hobby was using astronomical means as a method to attempt to validate things as well. It produced some very interesting findings as well. However, many of those findings I, and others, have had to deem as being inconclusive. Even with some of the best astronomical software available, and using several different software programs in attempt to produce reliable results that were verifiable, we were unable to produce reliable/verifiable results that were completely conclusive. The closest we came, still produced a result that had nearly a 24 hour discrepency in one year, with larger discrepencies in other years. We examined a wide range of years from both a calendric as well as an astronomic perspective. Regrettably, I can not agree with the findings presented upon the website presented. As from my POV the premise is fatally flawed. However, it is a very interesting study and does make for some interesting speculation.

My sincere apologies to you for my previous response. I normally read/review the posts and walk away for a while before deciding which I intend to reply unto. From there, I like to take a little time and pray/meditate before I respond. I did not do so and my response to you was rushed. I did/do not like the 'tone' of it, for it was unacceptable IMO. So again, my sincere apologies.

Richard

[nebula]

Forgiven.

Truthfully, prophecy is not something you can pin down easy. And actually, I believe that the only true and valid interpretations of it come from a direct revelation from God.

We see this when Daniel accurately interpreted the length of the Babylonian captivity which got him into prayer and fasting. We see this with Simeon and Anna in the Temple when Jesus was brought in to be presented before the Lord and circumcised.

The same goes for the End Times. The Lord will give the revelation to those He choses to give it to, when He choses, and for whatever reason.

When will the rest of us be enabled to catch on? Who knows. I can only pray that I know what I need to know to be in step with the hand of the Lord should I be on the Earth when the time comes.

[Richard_yaash]

Forgiven.

Thank you...

When will the rest of us be enabled to catch on? Who knows. I can only pray that I know what I need to know to be in step with the hand of the Lord should I be on the Earth when the time comes.

Well said.

[Isa]

Argh - I don't recall off the top of my head.

If I remember, when I have more time (which I don't right now), I will see if I can do a search for this . . . but I can't promise I will find it.

Unless someone else here knows what I'm talking about and can help me out?

Hi nebula,

I hope this helps you out.

What we must realize is that the 70 weeks have been broken up.

Daniel 9:25

25