Denominations

[OneLight]

I dont see that as being all that much of an issue. He did the right thing by not starting an argument. If I were to sit in on a service of another denomination, I would make it a point to ask someone in leadership about their traditions so that I would not do anything to embarrass them or myself. In the name of "unity" I would politely acquiese to their customs even if I don't exactly agree with them. I would put the need for unity and Godly fellowship ahead of demanding some percieved "right" to do what seemed proper to me.

I would agree to not partake when you are not invited. I was only inquiring your thoughts on the matter, which you gave. Thanks.

Since this is about denominations and the differences between them, I see this as another reason to have the unity Jesus wanted us to have. It should never matter which group of Christians we worship with in order to be welcomed. These differences has it's impact on the body, this being only one piece of evidence. What you are calling unity is not what unity is all about. It was respect for another. Unity would never of turned another Christian away.

[Thaddaeus]

Phil 2:12

He answered that this was where the parishners put out their candles prior to entering the church.

That actually has a double meaning and one which is still done for that reason. These candles represent prayers. Prayers were made at home in the old days, then carried to the church. My understanding is that they were not put out, but placed there to finish burning which is what is done today. If you visit an Orthodox Church you will find many lighting the candles and then making a short prayer. These are small thin candles. But there are also 5 day candles which are placed in containers along the front of the Iconostasis on either side of the alter. These are left to also burn out, signifiying continued prayer that was offered at the time it was lit. These are all practices that were slightly adapted by early Christians from the practices in the Synogogues.

Yes there is much that is not even doctrinal but custom that has spiritual meaning and some that does not necessarily have spiritual meaning but is still performed.

For example, there are several songs either sung or chanted in the Antiphon portion and that word itself is a carryover from way back in the third and fourth centuries when it began when Christians could actually freely assemble and Churches were actually built. But as the numbers grew in a particular city they either would meet first in homes or other smaller buildings for the first part of the Liturgy or what is also known as the catechuman portion. When this was concluded all the parishioners would literally march probably to the center of town where the large Church was located. But in doing this they would repeat these songs as they marched and when they came within sight of each other they would respone antiphonally before entering the Church. We still sing these three times in each Liturgy today, three signifying the Trinity.

Another example of very little change is in the most important means by which the Gospel has always been taught in the Church is through the Liturgy itself. The first was that of St James of Jeruselem. The same as mentioned in the Bible. It was used until the 4th century when two contemporaries changed it to either the St Basil or St Chrysostom Liturgies. These are still the ONLY ones used today by all churches in the Orthodox Church.

In my study I found that the doctrinal teaching or understanding of the original Gospel has not changed one iota. No man has been able to change that Gospel. Many have tried and each time individual innovations were declared heretical. The test of Truth is "has it always been held, taught, and practiced from the beginning. It is known as the "Rule of Faith" Each Ecumenical Council used that principle in determining the Truth from falsehood.

It is all very interesting and there is 2000 years of history to read and study besides the theology.

If you are interested in reading and learning more I can give you some web sites or you can go there on your own, but make sure they are Eastern Orthodox, not just any orthodox. I have been reading asnd studying now for ten years and no end in sight.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Feb 11 2008, 07:50 PM)

I dont see that as being all that much of an issue. He did the right thing by not starting an argument. If I were to sit in on a service of another denomination, I would make it a point to ask someone in leadership about their traditions so that I would not do anything to embarrass them or myself. In the name of "unity" I would politely acquiese to their customs even if I don't exactly agree with them. I would put the need for unity and Godly fellowship ahead of demanding some percieved "right" to do what seemed proper to me.

I would agree to not partake when you are not invited. I was only inquiring your thoughts on the matter, which you gave. Thanks.

Since this is about denominations and the differences between them, I see this as another reason to have the unity Jesus wanted us to have. It should never matter which group of Christians we worship with in order to be welcomed. These differences has it's impact on the body, this being only one piece of evidence. What you are calling unity is not what unity is all about. It was respect for another. Unity would never of turned another Christian away.

Actually what I presented IS what unity is about. It is the ability to fellowship together inspite of differences. It is not merely "respect" for another's customs, but loving another enough to put the person ahead of the customs. Mutual respect is part of it, but it is not limited to respect.

Backontrack was not "turned away" from the service entirely, from what I gather, but was not allowed to participate in their communion. I have been to services of other denominations where I was not allowed to participate in communion but was allowed to remain in the service and participate in other areas. I was not personally offended. That's just me. Other people are wired differently, and I can make room for that.

The type of unity where everyone has to believe the exact same way on every point of doctrine is not supported by the Bible. That Bible does not teach that kind of "unity." The unity the Bible speaks of only occurs when we walk in love, preferring one another over ourselves, giving up pride, bitterness, hate, bigotry, etc. With realy unity doctrinal differences over peripheral issues, can be easily overlooked or at least accomodated in a genuine spirit of love.

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh357,

The type of unity where everyone has to believe the exact same way on every point of doctrine is not supported by the Bible.

It is supported by the Bible and is precisely what is meant by Christ as being the same as He is, ONE with the Father. It is why it is ONE faith, ONE Lord, and ONE Church.

What most of you are describing is not unity but union. There is a vast theological difference between these two. If what you say or mean by what you say, that doctrinal issues are secondary then Islam can be as welcome in your church and participate in all functions the same as you. You can be in union with the JW and the Mormons but unity is not what would take place.

Cities that have many churches often have Citywide organizations that perform similar outreach functions. This is union not unity. The reason you can have only union is that you differ in all the things that makes unity possible. That UNITY is based on ONE faith. The minute you have different understanding of that faith, you no longer have ONE faith, and no longer have unity. Chjrist CANNOT be divided. Can you even divide the Trinity?

[Guest shiloh357]

What most of you are describing is not unity but union. There is a vast theological difference between these two. If what you say or mean by what you say, that doctrinal issues are secondary then Islam can be as welcome in your church and participate in all functions the same as you. You can be in union with the JW and the Mormons but unity is not what would take place.

Wrong, the context of everything I said only applies to denominations that are accepted within the pale of Christianity, namely Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentacostals, Presbyterians, Espicopalians, etc. Nothing I said indictaed the embracing of false relgions or cults such as Islam, JW, Mormons, etc.

Cities that have many churches often have Citywide organizations that perform similar outreach functions. This is union not unity.

No it is not "union." You are trying split hairs over nothing. Union amounts to a physical joining of two entities. Unity for the purpose of this discussion is a moral concept that when applied in genuine love is able to cross doctrinal boundaries and show the love of Christ in a genuine fashion to everyone irrespective of differences in views or opinions on peripheral, doctrinal matters.

[Smalcald]

Yeah I basically feel like shilo on this. I have been to both Catholic and Southern Baptist services and participated in those services, but did not take communion in either. You are NEVER asked to leave the service in either case. For the Catholic Communion you just don't go up to the alter, for the Baptist communion I was at you just pass the juice and the bread to the next guy, no big deal in either case.

We participate where we have common ground; we do not participate where we do not have common ground.

But let me say that I honestly in my heart feel what onelight is saying we are Christians first, not Lutherans or Catholics or Baptists. I honestly believe that there are those who have true faith in Christ among most Christian groups, and the Lord knows who His people are. Understanding and holding the most correct doctrine having the most correct and perfect understanding of Holy Scripture will save no one by itself. Thus there will be those who are in congregations and denominations which in my mind have gone way of base and are simply wrong on some big issues, who will be saved, and there are some who are in congregations who hold what I feel is exactly correct doctrine and great understanding of Holy Scripture who will not be saved.

[OneLight]

So, correct me if I'm wrong. You feel that it is perfectly acceptable to have many different understandings of Gods word, remaining separated by our "differences", and that we should just overlook these differences and not try to come together under one belief as the Apostles did?

I will, instead, continue to seek the whole truth that does unite the Body of Christ as Jesus intended it to be and still love all who believe in Jesus. I can not sit back and be a part of the differences with a good conscience. This is a decision we all have to make. Below is a couple of scriptures that show that we are to be as one. There has been more I have posted, but I have not seen any that support "diversity", as you put it.

Ephesians 4:4-6

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Philippians 1:27-28

Striving and Suffering for Christ

Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.

[Guest shiloh357]

So, correct me if I'm wrong. You feel that it is perfectly acceptable to have many different understandings of Gods word, remaining separated by our "differences", and that we should just overlook these differences and not try to come together under one belief as the Apostles did?

You have yet to convince me that all of the Apostles saw eye to eye on the same issue. Paul had conflicts with both Peter and Barnabas (although Barnabas was not an apostle). To say that the early church was completely unified on every point, every belief is something I am not sure that you can support. While they have been of like mind on several key issues, I am not convinced that a case can be mounted that they had no differences at all. In fact, Peter admits that Paul's writings are hard to understand.

I will, instead, continue to seek the whole truth that does unite the Body of Christ as Jesus intended it to be and still love all who believe in Jesus. I can not sit back and be a part of the differences with a good conscience.

What precisely is that truth according to your understanding?

Below is a couple of scriptures that show that we are to be as one. There has been more I have posted, but I have not seen any that support "diversity", as you put it.

Ephesians 4:4-6

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Philippians 1:27-28

Striving and Suffering for Christ

Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.

I fail to see where either of those Scriptures demand that no one is allowed to have a differing opinion or view on a particular portion of Scripture.

Why cannot I as a Baptist be of one faith with a Lutheran or Methodist? Why should perpheral differences mean that we cannot be one body? Again, I think the problem is with your premise that denominations are the product of selfish motives of one group of people thinking their way is the best way and the most "Christian." That is how denominations are often characterized, and I have found that characterization to be historically inaccurate.

[OneLight]

You keep using the word peripheral as if any part of our faith is less important or outside of our faith. I see it being complete, one. As for me convincing anyone that what I said is true, I have already answered everyone on this. Pray and allow God to show you if what I have said is right or not. It was never my idea to convince anyone, but to bring to light what the Holy Spirit showed me in His word.

There has been a lot of discussion over words like division, diversity, differences, peripheral. Yet, the big picture has been overlooked as we do this. I have explained it all in my past posts and we are now going in circles. Study, pray and seek guidance for the Holy Spirit, then stand firm on your convictions.

God Bless,

In His Love,

Alan

[Smalcald]

So, correct me if I'm wrong. You feel that it is perfectly acceptable to have many different understandings of Gods word, remaining separated by our "differences", and that we should just overlook these differences and not try to come together under one belief as the Apostles did?

I will, instead, continue to seek the whole truth that does unite the Body of Christ as Jesus intended it to be and still love all who believe in Jesus. I can not sit back and be a part of the differences with a good conscience. This is a decision we all have to make. Below is a couple of scriptures that show that we are to be as one. There has been more I have posted, but I have not seen any that support "diversity", as you put it.

Indeed there is no scriptural support for diversity. I hope people find the true faith and doctrine and join the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Luther was exactly correct in his doctrine which perfectly reflects Holy Scripture, thus his view that we have Scripture alone, grace alone and faith alone. There is only one true faith if that were not the case I would join the a different church. Is that what you wish me to say?

But seriously, there are basics of Christian faith largely reflected very precisely in the Christian creeds, when we leave those basic beliefs we are out of the Word of God, many different congregations and denominations who disagree on doctrine are within this Christian faith and these beliefs. We are not the first Christians, we have had brilliant believers, people fighting for this faith for 2000 years, why do we caste about for new things? Is God