Just War

[Guest yod]

Guess no one's interested in Thomas Aquinas' view then?

Conundrum, you raise good points about pacifism vs allowing the proliferation of evil, but how do you reconcile that view with the fairly straightforward Commandment, Thou shalt not kill? The earliest Christians refused to raise a hand to anyone, even when they were dragged away to be murdered by the Romans or other oppressors, largely because of this Commandment. Christ commands us to "resist not evil:"

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:39

How do you reconcile this instruction with the idea that a Godly ruler should use force to deal with un-Godly nations?

Actually when Paul wrote that the rulers were the Romans....not godly in any stretch of the imagination. How often have we seen "godly" rulers in history? once? twice?

Throughout the Tenach, God used the wicked to judge nations...then He judged the wicked. We have to accept that God is sovereign and He will judge righteously whether the instruments of judgement meet our criteria or not.

That said, a "just" war is a human measurement because there would be none if not for sin. The teaching of Yeshua on "turn the other cheek" is one of individual and personal response to insult. Nations are not individuals. Governments are (generally) responsible for the preservation of their people. What is a just war to one nation might not be to another nation.

So again...the criteria for a just war is the preservation of life. Invading Nazi Germany was that...and in the big picture, Iraq can also be defined that way because there is coming a war of civilizations with the prince of Persia (Iran) and this is only a defensive buffer which gives the West a base for when it begins in earnest.

[Willow99]

Well what does God say about war?

I don't think you will find war backed up by Scripture in the NT.

I have prayerfully studied the issue long and hard and cannot reconcile it with God's Will for the people living under Grace.

Back when Israel was physical, a chosen people unto God in the OT, they fought the enemies of God as He led them to.

Today there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek... we all are God's people.

God Bless,

Willow99

[Willow99]

Well what does God say about war?

Good question Blein...

Deuteronomy 20

Going to War

1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. 2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army. 3 He shall say: "Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them. 4 For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."

5 The officers shall say to the army: "Has anyone built a new house and not dedicated it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else may dedicate it. 6 Has anyone planted a vineyard and not begun to enjoy it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else enjoy it. 7 Has anyone become pledged to a woman and not married her? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else marry her." 8 Then the officers shall add, "Is any man afraid or fainthearted? Let him go home so that his brothers will not become disheartened too." 9 When the officers have finished speaking to the army, they shall appoint commanders over it.

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them

[Guest Biblicist]

Willow,

Do you not believe that the OT is applicable to today's society?

I also posted two passages from Proverbs about war. I will post them again for your convenience. Of course, if we handled disputes in a Biblical manner, it is likely there would be no more war.

Proverbs 24:6 for waging war you need guidance,

and for victory many advisers.

Proverbs 20:18 Make plans by seeking advice;

if you wage war, obtain guidance.

[Willow99]

Willow,

Do you not believe that the OT is applicable to today's society?

I also posted two passages from Proverbs about war. I will post them again for your convenience. Of course, if we handled disputes in a Biblical manner, it is likely there would be no more war.

Proverbs 24:6 for waging war you need guidance,

and for victory many advisers.

Proverbs 20:18 Make plans by seeking advice;

if you wage war, obtain guidance.

I hear what you are saying but there were no Christians living in these places that God called Israel to fight. Unlike today with Christians living in Iraq and being slaughtered along with every one else, it's just not the same thing.

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

You are so right if only all would reason together in the love of God there would be no wars.

I do believe that this Iraqi war was uncalled for and its caused such a mess that I'm not sure if there's a way out of it.

God Bless,

Willow

[David of Derby]

Removing Saddam's blood-soaked and evil regime was completely just. It's just the planners that were grossly incompetent, not the idea itself that was at fault.

[David of Derby]

Removing Saddam's blood-soaked and evil regime was completely just. It's just the planners that were grossly incompetent, not the idea itself that was at fault.

[Guest Biblicist]

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

I know this is off topic but....what do you mean by this statement. God does not have chosen people?

[Rick-Parker]

Willow, you said

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

But the Bible says in Deuteronomy 7:6-8 "For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth.

Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples:

but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (ASV), and also in chapter 14:1,2 "Ye are the children of Jehovah your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God, and Jehovah hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth." (ASV).

There are many other scriptures. Anyway......back on topic.

Edit: Oh, and every word in the Bible is relevant.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Brandon's Popo

[Guest Biblicist]

Willow, you said

There's much in the OT that's relevant today but God having a chosen people just isn't one of them.

But the Bible says in Deuteronomy 7:6-8 "For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth.

Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples:

but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (ASV), and also in chapter 14:1,2 "Ye are the children of Jehovah your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God, and Jehovah hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth." (ASV).

There are many other scriptures. Anyway......back on topic.

Edit: Oh, and every word in the Bible is relevant.