trading religion for relationship

[patricia1]

richard, I too become grieved that those who can be a light to a dead church leave . Sometimes it is selfishness..Just the mere fact that Jesus came into this world to make a change for us all should be enough to teach us Longsuffering in a church that needs to grow.

I had only left a church when Jesus told me to leave and almost left too soon because my flesh. I even had the pastor who ordained me who had no idea of what was happening, He lived in a different stae..tell me and warned me not to leave. Whoa....The fear of the Lord was more pronounced in my understanding the never before even though this church was becoming satans playground...

One is put someplace either by their own thinking or by Gods ordained will. Eceryone wants minstering to but do not whant to do the ministering. Many are called but few are chosen, The laborers are few and those who leaves against Gods wishes will be held accountable. Especially if there was a work Jesus wanted to do through them...

[Richard_yaash]

richard, I too become grieved that those who can be a light to a dead church leave.

It is not that they leave. I have spent a lot of years working with 'cults', it requires an immense commitment. One that I do not know if I am even up to anymore. I personally do not think we are all capable of such a commitment due to our circumstances in life, nor are we all called to such.

In thinking about this and considering it in comparison to working with a 'cult', the dynamics of which, while similar are yet much different. Thus why I am interested in hearing from others.

Just the mere fact that Jesus came into this world to make a change for us all should be enough to teach us Longsuffering in a church that needs to grow.

I fully understand. However, it does require a rather good portion of faith in order to so.

I had only left a church when Jesus told me to leave and almost left too soon because my flesh. I even had the pastor who ordained me who had no idea of what was happening, He lived in a different state..tell me and warned me not to leave. Whoa....The fear of the Lord was more pronounced in my understanding the never before even though this church was becoming satans playground...

Understood. Something I have seen occur amoung others [two fold meaning there].

One is put someplace either by their own thinking or by Gods ordained will. Everyone wants ministering to but do not want to do the ministering.

While I was all to happy to minister unto others, there are times when I am in need of ministering. I for one truly believe we need both.

Thank you again Patricia, for I have enjoyed reading your response.

[jackie d]

I am so happy to see this thread alive and thriving...I hope to have some more meat for us to chew on later today...

[nebula]

richard, I too become grieved that those who can be a light to a dead church leave.

It is not that they leave. I have spent a lot of years working with 'cults', it requires an immense commitment. . . .

Thus why I am interested in hearing from others.

First of all, I agree that if you are sensitive to the voice of the Lord, you should go to the church the Lord tells you to go to and not leave until he tells you.

But not all of us are so blessed . . . I have a huge struggle with this.

But, if you aren't so sure, you need to look for other cues. If you are in a dead church or if you are in a cult (I think the two of you were thinking two different things here), the only reason to stay would be is if that church was your mission field. (How's that for being a non-paid missionary? ) Of course, you have to take into account whatever the pastor allows yoou to do there. Some "lights" have to leave because they can't submit to the pastor and be that light at the same time.

For me, I had to leave my church because it was killing me to continue. (Long story.) Most of my other team memebers (specific ministry I was a part of in the church) eventually left as well, partly for the same reason, but also because the pastor's rule was choking the ministry (control issues, usery). It didn't help that the pastor was caught engaging in "questionable behavior," . . . . (But that's another story.)

As for a cult - that's ann entirely different animal. There is no way you can be alight while in a cult. Leadership is too controlling to let you operate outside his or her thumb. (I know because I got caught up in one, too. About the only good that came out of that was lessons learned . . . like what a cult is all about and how people are so easily deceived and snared.

[jackie d]

As for a cult - that's ann entirely different animal. There is no way you can be alight while in a cult. Leadership is too controlling to let you operate outside his or her thumb.

I think I saw somewhere how Richard spoke of breaking down the "walls" of cults not that he was actually a member of any of them..I think

by the way Nebula, the book just keeps getting better.

[Treasure]

I love Peretti's books but it's been years since I read this one.

[Richard_yaash]

I think I saw somewhere how Richard spoke of breaking down the "walls" of cults not that he was actually a member of any of them..I think

Correct Jackie. I will clarify further in another reply.

[nebula]

I think I saw somewhere how Richard spoke of breaking down the "walls" of cults not that he was actually a member of any of them..I think

Oh, I thought he said he was with the group for a while. OK.

by the way Nebula, the book just keeps getting better.

Yup!

4given - I heard that the DVD left out the main character's history?

[Richard_yaash]

First of all, I agree that if you are sensitive to the voice of the Lord, you should go to the church the Lord tells you to go to and not leave until he tells you.

But not all of us are so blessed . . . I have a huge struggle with this.

I do understand Nebula.

But, if you aren't so sure, you need to look for other cues. If you are in a dead church or if you are in a cult (I think the two of you were thinking two different things here)

The reference in both cases was to dead churches. For myself, I am interested in discussing/finding ways to help bring back life into these churches.

I used to work with 'cults' in helping to set people free from them, and in helping to bring about their dissolution [as Jackie said: breaking down the walls].

the only reason to stay would be is if that church was your mission field. (How's that for being a non-paid missionary? ) Of course, you have to take into account whatever the pastor allows yoou to do there. Some "lights" have to leave because they can't submit to the pastor and be that light at the same time.

Understood and well said.

For me, I had to leave my church because it was killing me to continue. (Long story.) Most of my other team members (specific ministry I was a part of in the church) eventually left as well, partly for the same reason, but also because the pastor's rule was choking the ministry (control issues, usery).

And thus, one example of what brings a church into a state of being 'dead'.

As for a cult - that's an entirely different animal.

Yes it is. It is one in which I understand the dynamics as well as how to bring about change. However, I am loath to use the same measures within a church. Thus why I am interested in hearing from others.

There is no way you can be alight while in a cult. Leadership is too controlling to let you operate outside his or her thumb. (I know because I got caught up in one, too. About the only good that came out of that was lessons learned . . . like what a cult is all about and how people are so easily deceived and snared.

Regrettably, it is all too easy for people to be caught up and ensnared.

[nebula]

The reference in both cases was to dead churches.

OK - the way "cult" was used in a particular quote, I misunderstood. Apologies.

For myself, I am interested in discussing/finding ways to help bring back life into these churches.

Yeah, I understand. I was thinking back to a comment that seemed to imply that a church dies or remains dead because those that can give light to the church leave. So, I was trying to explain why it is people with light to give leave.

Keep in mind that I am a better observer than interpreter. So my presenting of this side is intended to present data with which you can hopefully utilize to come up with a solution. Make sense?

I don't have a solution. But in looking at different ways to understand the problem, maybe you or someone can figure out how to tackle the problem, or what the problem is that needs to be tackled.